Building Therapy for Black Girls with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Dr. Joy Bradford (00:00):

Just you could feel it even through the TV screen. There was just incredible energy. So I was like, wow, it would be really cool to be able to capture some of this same energy for black women as it relates to mental health. So I got on GoDaddy that evening. The domain was available. Of course, it started as just a blog. I was writing about how do you find a therapist? How do you make the most of your support system, just kind of general mental health topics. And it wasn't until 2017 where I added the therapist directory and the podcast to Therapy for Black Girls.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:34):

This is Heard Business School where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. Therapy Spaces were not designed with black women in mind. My guest this week is changing that Dr. Joy Harden Bradford is a licensed psychologist and founder of Therapy for Black Girls, an online space dedicated to encouraging the mental wellness of black women and girls. She's also the host of the award-Winning Therapy for Black Girls Podcast and author of Sisterhood Heels. In our conversation, we discuss why it's so important for Black women to have spaces designed for them, her journey building therapy for Black girls, and how she balances being a public figure as a homebody. Here's my conversation with my friend, Dr. Joy. Enjoy Dr. Joy Harden. Bradford, welcome to the show.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (01:30):

Thank you so much for having me, Michael. I'm excited to chat with you.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:33):

So excited that you're here. This is a big moment. I feel like you're like the Beyonce of podcasting.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (01:41):

That is definitely going on my resume. That's definitely going on my resume now.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:45):

Very much appreciate our relationship and friendship and excited that we’re able to have this conversation today.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (01:52):

Exactly. Me too.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:54):

So you grew up in small town Louisiana. I've heard you talk about how your mom had 10 siblings, which is wild. And you remember growing up sitting on the porch with your grandma. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what that was like?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (02:11):

I love that you know so much of my lore already, but yeah, so very small town in Louisiana and grew up in a big family and I spent a lot of time on the front porch with my grandmother, which is where I think I became very curious about human behavior. So just kind of paying attention to what was happening. We grew up across the street from a church and so just all of the comings and goings and what's all happening over there. So I think I just saw so much and would make up stories about what I thought was going on and I didn't realize until I got to high school and had a chance to take a psychology class that there was actually a name for being curious about human behavior, which was psychology. So I took the class in high school and really have never looked back. I majored in psychology as an undergrad and then of course this has become my career.

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Michael Fulwiler (03:01):

I love that. It reminds me of Susan Johnson who created Emotionally Focused Therapy. She talks about how she grew up in a pub in England and so there was just always people coming and going and she just was very curious about people and their conversations and that makes a lot of sense. I definitely want to talk about your educational background as well. So let me read this out here. It is impressive. So you have your bachelor's in psychology from Xavier, university of Louisiana. You got your master's degree in vocational rehabilitation counseling from Arkansas State, and then you got your PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Georgia. You wrote your dissertation on depression and anxiety among black people attending predominantly white academic institutions. As a black woman, did you feel comfortable or accepted in these programs?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (03:54):

So Michael, first of all, I dunno that I have talked about my dissertation topic super closely, so you have been deep. I did my research deep in the research. It definitely was difficult. So when I was at the University of Georgia, I believe the percentage in terms of black students was lower than 7%. It might've been even less than that. And so being a part of a Black Graduate Student Association and other organizations where other students who were like me and kind of experienced the same kinds of things was really imperative, I think, to my success. Otherwise, I mean, not only were there few students of color on campus, but it's also just a huge campus. And so I think otherwise I would've felt very alienated. It would've been very difficult. I think for me to find my footing. I was really lucky, I think to have the support of my department and to have a major professor who was really encouraging and really wanted me to study the things that I wanted to study and what advocate for me. So I think it was being a part of those organizations and finding my little niche is what really allowed me to be

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Michael Fulwiler (04:56):

Successful. Yeah. I read an interview that you did with the APA, I think it was in 2018, so I went way back. You even described it as host. Was there some hostility from faculty or administration?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (05:11):

Yeah, so now you're digging up difficult memories, Michael. So there was a lot of, in our graduate program, there definitely were some instances of racism and when we would ask questions about it, faculty would not be open to having those conversations. And I remember distinctly, there was one situation where we had raised so many questions and gone on record with so many things we felt like were wrong, that we were released from our practicum program, which was unheard of, right? So the department had a in-house training clinic that we were all mandated to do as I don't remember what year in our program it was. And so they were so unhappy with how unhappy we were that they released us from our practicum and then we had to go out into the community to find our own training experience. So it definitely was very hostile and it became very difficult to even recommend the program to other people because it's like we don't know what kind of experience you're going to get here because it really depends on the faculty.

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Michael Fulwiler (06:11):

And did that influence your decision to want to work with college students after you graduated?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (06:18):

I feel like that decision probably was already in place, but I definitely think it furthered it, right. I think it furthered my reasoning for wanting to be a voice and be an outlet for students who are on campuses, the one I was on, just because I was very acutely aware of how that could impact your mental health and that you would need support.

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Michael Fulwiler (06:37):

Yeah, and what did you observe about Black students seeking mental health services? Were they coming to the counseling center?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (06:44):

Yeah, I definitely observed, and I've been on lots of different campuses. So I was at the University of Georgia, I was at Emory's campus in Oxford. I was at Virginia Commonwealth University. So I've been on lots of different campuses and across the board I would notice that the Black students would not come into the counseling center as much as their peers. So on every campus I was on, I would always do these outreach groups, whether it was in the minority students office, minority students and programs, or with the sororities or working with different student organizations to run groups for the Black women on campus, just so that they knew there was somebody in the counseling center who they could talk with if they wanted to, but also to give them some information around mental health and what does it actually mean to take care of your mental health.

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Michael Fulwiler (07:29):

Definitely. And at what point does private practice become something that you're interested in as you're working as a college counselor?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (07:38):

So college Counseling Center is super flexible, and so I don't know that I had thought about a private practice until I saw so many of my colleagues. So because college counseling center hours are often flexible, you don't typically work a nine to five because grad students and other students have evening hours. So typically the counseling center is open until the evening, at least a couple of days a week, which meant that our schedules could be flexible where most of us had a half day off. And so many of my colleagues would work at the counseling center, but also have one day a week where they had their own private practice in the community. I was able to work with some colleagues to have an office space and I was like, oh, this seems like a cool thing to do. I can have some additional income and still kind of work with clients privately in the community. I think they modeled that for me and made it really easy for that to be something for me to step into.

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Michael Fulwiler (08:30):

Were you at Emory at the time?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (08:32):

I was at UGA at

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Michael Fulwiler (08:33):

The time U. Okay. So we had Dr. Ayana Abrams on the show who I know is a

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Dr. Joy Bradford (08:38):

Friend,

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Michael Fulwiler (08:39):

I think as when she was kind of getting started. She had heard of you, and so I actually didn't realize as long as we've known each other that you were in private practice at one point. I know, and we'll talk about therapy for Black girls. So I wanted to chat with you about that. And so it sounds like you had some good models for what that could look like. Were there any challenges or was there a learning curve for you starting to work with clients outside of a traditional college counseling center?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (09:07):

I wouldn't say so just because again, I think the infrastructure was already there. Other colleagues gave me their paperwork and I just changed it to my name and that kind of thing. And because the counseling center, I mean, most counseling center therapists will tell you there's always a wait list, and so we were able to get referrals from the counseling center, and so people who might not have been a good fit for the counseling center or for whatever reason, other colleagues would refer them to you in practice. And so it wasn't really hard to have a full caseload as much as I wanted it to be full. So I wouldn't really say that there were any challenges getting started.

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Michael Fulwiler (09:44):

And then did you ultimately transition into private practice or did you just continue to do both?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (09:50):

Yeah, I never actually transitioned into full-time private practice. So once I left the counseling center world, I left for Therapy for Black Girls. And so I was always somebody who worked on a college campus and then have a half day where I would see clients privately.

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Michael Fulwiler (10:05):

Let's talk about Therapy for Black Girls then. Where did the idea for therapy for Black girls come from?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (10:10):

So it came from watching the Black Girls Rock Award show on BET. I

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Michael Fulwiler (10:16):

Saw that.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (10:16):

Yeah, so I was watching it in my living room, and it was just such a beautiful example of Black women giving each other their flowers, people celebrating each other in the field of entertainment, but also education, and you could feel it even through the TV screen. There was just the incredible energy. And so I was like, wow, it would be really cool to be able to capture some of this same energy for Black women as it relates to mental health. So I got on GoDaddy that evening. The domain was available, of course, and it started as just a blog I was writing about how do you find a therapist? How do you make the most of your support system, just kind of general mental health topics. And it wasn't until 2017 where I added the therapist directory and the podcast to Therapy for Black Girls.

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Michael Fulwiler (11:02):

So it started in 2014. From 2014 to 2017, you're writing blogs. Is it growing? Are you starting to get a following? What was happening during that time?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (11:13):

Yeah, I was writing blogs, but also sharing posts I think on social media. And I was starting to do more media interviews, so people would be writing an article about Black women's mental health or something mental health related, and they would start to reach out for me to give a quote or give some ideas for their stories. So that really was what was happening in that between time before the podcast and the directory got started.

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Michael Fulwiler (11:36):

Yeah, I remember I went back and looked, it was 2018, Huffington Post wrote an article about you. The title of that article was This Psychologist is Changing the Face of Therapy for Black Women. And I remember I was running marketing at the Gottman Institute and I was traveling the country to trainings and conferences, and this was my first exposure to the therapy industry. And I'd look around at these conferences and there'd be very few Black people, Black women. It was mostly white women. And so there was really this lack of representation that to me was so obvious. And so when I remember seeing that, I was like, oh, this is someone that I want to meet and talk to. And I think that we had interviewed you for our blog, and then I know that we had sponsored an event at one point. And so when I came with the Gottman's to Atlanta, who was like a no-brainer. So I reached out to you to see if you'd be interested in hosting us for their book tour events. Then we got to meet, which was really nice.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (12:36):

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Definitely. And I agree with you. I feel like those, at that time, people were kind of insular. We weren't necessarily doing a whole bunch across the country. And so I love that social media has really been an opportunity for us to be more collective and share training opportunities and ideas about our practices.

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Michael Fulwiler (12:55):

I'd love to drill into this evolution of the Therapy for Black Girls ecosystem. You look at it today and it's really big, but it just started as a blog. So how did the directory come to be? Where did that idea come from?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (13:09):

Yeah, I think it came primarily from me being very active on social media and just paying attention to the kinds of conversations Black women were having. And I started to continue to see people say like, oh, I'd love to find a Black woman therapist. Does anybody have a recommendation? And I was like, why isn't there a place where this exists? Right? It felt like enough people were asking that there should be something. So I started it as a Google Doc as a way to respond to all of these people saying, Hey, I want a recommendation. So it started as a Google doc where people could either nominate or recommend their therapist, and eventually enough therapists heard about it that they didn't want to kind of self-nominate or sign themselves up. And so it was just like me and a Google Doc separated by state, and you could just link to people's practice websites and kind of connect with them that way. And it quickly became two difficult for me to manage manually. As more and more people became interested, I realized that I needed to put some infrastructure around it.

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Michael Fulwiler (14:09):

How did you do that? Did you go hire someone to build a website?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (14:13):

I want to back up Michael. It feels like I had the Google Doc id, and then I immediately moved into this thing. I actually resisted having the directory go beyond a Google Doc because I'm not a tech person. I didn't even know which questions to ask. I didn't know who I needed to build this website. I just knew that it was somebody who wasn't me. I went to a training or training kind of therapist expansion. So it was a workshop in San Francisco put on by Alison Per Salmon, Alison Sam Per, and Tiffany McLean, who are two therapists in the field who do a lot of helping therapists kind of think about what's the next step for your, and so I went to this program, it was called Next to think about, okay, I'm kind of not wanting to necessarily do as much practice. What is the next thing?

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(15:00):

And so I talked with them about the idea that I had started the directory at the time, but it wasn't necessarily the thing that I was thinking was going to happen next. And as I'm explaining it to them, they were like, whatcha talking about this is the thing. You're sitting on this huge project that's clearly interest. Why would you not move forward with it? So it was through them and them helping to connect me. I think one of them had a developer colleague or something who they put me in touch with. And that is when I began to learn the language of like, okay, this is what you need a website developer, and this is how they build it. So it was really through that program that I got the push to actually not be afraid of the code and stuff, and that there would be people there that I could lean on to help me to build the things that I didn't know anything about. This

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Michael Fulwiler (15:46):

Was 2017, so in 2025, there's a lot more directories now. There's also, it's easier to build a website. The technology, the tools are much more user friendly. So this was almost 10 years ago where there are specialized directories at the time. I remember at that time, it's Psychology Today is the big one. We had the Gottman Referral Network. But I feel like that was unique.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (16:09):

That was all I was really unique aware of. I don't feel like there were a lot, maybe some more niche ones, but Psychology Today for sure was the one that most therapists would sign up with.

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Michael Fulwiler (16:21):

Then what happened? So after you attend this event, you get inspired, maybe it validates that there's an opportunity here.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (16:29):

I think I started having conversations with developers and got price quotes and was like, oh, this is expensive. This is a free thing. Nobody's paying for this right now. I can't oh, afford this. But then I started shopping around and then use the website, Upwork to find an independent contractor who, I forget which country he was in, maybe Albania, who was able to build the first iteration of the directory. For me, that was pretty cost-effective. And so that's where it started. And then I started charging therapist to be listed in the directory because as it continued to grow, it was costly to manage. So that's when I started to charge for it.

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Michael Fulwiler (17:08):

And was it growing organically through word of mouth? Were you having to market it? How were you thinking about growing it as it started to generate some revenue?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (17:20):

All of it really grew by word of mouth. So people finding therapists, therapists telling each other like, Hey, I'm getting a bunch of clients from this resource. You should check it out. But we also got some pretty big podcast hits. So there was a very popular podcast at the time called Another Round, which was hosted by two incredible Black women, Heaven and Tracy, and they shouted out the directory, so that helped it to grow. Solange tweeted about it, Solange knows, tweeted about it. And so that really kind of organically happened, and after that tweet, the website went down, I think so much traffic came to it. So it really was organic and just word of mouth and people just being happy. They were able to connect with these therapists.

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Michael Fulwiler (18:02):

That's amazing. And now it's really the premier directory to find a Black female therapist. I'm curious about the podcast. So did the podcast and the directory, those both were launched in 2017, both during the same year?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (18:19):

Yeah, they both were 2017. The podcast launched in April, and I feel like the directory was later, but I don't quite remember the dates of that. But they were really independent and I didn't necessarily think about them as a part of a larger ecosystem. I think they both were just things that I was curious about. So the podcast I started because I was at the counseling center at Clark Atlanta University, and I had a 45 minute to an hour commute each way. And so I started listening to a bunch of podcasts. And so as I was listening, I was thinking like, oh, this would be a great addition to the blogs that I'm already doing. I could podcast about some of these topics. And my husband actually has a background in radio production, and so I was like, I have an in-house producer, so I don't know that I probably don't have to expend a bunch of money to get this done. And so it just started as something I wanted to try, and then again, it took off. So I don't think either of them started as me thinking, oh, this is the next step of my business. I don't think I thought any of them would become things that I would monetize. I just kind of was curious and they took off because people were interested and there was a need there.

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Michael Fulwiler (19:27):

So many therapists that we have on the show have that experience where they just tried something they didn't plan on. There's no five year business plan here or a one year business plan, no business plan. We're just going to turn anxiety, and that's okay. I think it gives permission for listeners to try something and just kind see how it goes and not get stuck in that perfectionism of, oh, this isn't ready yet. So it sounds like your husband, was he producing? He was the initial producer of the show. He's doing all the, oh, he did.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (20:00):

He still is. That's awesome.

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Michael Fulwiler (20:02):

I didn't realize that.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (20:03):

At the time, he was also employed full-time outside and was producing kind on the side, and now he is a full-time employee of Therapy for Black Girls. And so now this is his full-time job, but at the time, he was just doing it late in the evening when he would get home from his other job.

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Michael Fulwiler (20:18):

You said that it took off. Was there a moment where you felt like, oh, there's something here that you felt like there was really some momentum or

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Dr. Joy Bradford (20:27):

I don't know if there was any one particular moment. And I think because again, I wasn't thinking about it as a thing to be monetized, I wasn't most excited that people were actually listening. I was most excited that it was generating conversations and people were really excited. They would write in and suggest topics. And so I think I was most excited that people really were engaged and really felt like the content was something that they'd been looking for that was helpful to them. Of course, we have now joined the iHeart Podcast Network, so that definitely was a huge marker of success that there's no outside interest in the podcast. But I think initially I was just most excited about people actually listening and responding and using it as a resource as I intended it.

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Michael Fulwiler (21:10):

How did the iHeart partnership come to be? Did they approach you?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (21:15):

So there was a producer who was with iHeart at the time who listened to the podcast and suggested the podcast to the higher ups and iHeart and said, I think we need to have a conversation with her. This podcast is doing really well. I think we could bring it into the network and really help to amplify it.

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Michael Fulwiler (21:30):

Is there anything about podcasting that's been surprising to you that you weren't expecting?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (21:38):

All of it. All of it. And I think for a lot of people when you are a consumer of podcasts, especially, a lot of the podcasts I listen to are friends chatting or pop culture catchup kinds of things. And so it sounds like, oh, we are just listening to a conversation that you could be having with a friend on FaceTime. I think the part that has been most surprising to me is the amount of work that actually goes into something that sounds pretty, actually probably a lot of time that goes into having the conversation, somebody editing the conversation, putting it together, uploading it. There's a lot of hours that go behind the scenes of a 30 to 45 minute episode that I would not have imagined on the front end.

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Michael Fulwiler (22:21):

How long would you say that you spend on one episode kind of end to end all inclusive?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (22:30):

Well, me probably two hours, but I also have a team. So each, I think probably each episode is probably a six hour or so endeavor because there's time spent searching for the guests, doing a prep doc where we're preparing, okay, what kinds of things do we want to cover in this conversation? Two producers are listening to it before my husband does the final pads, and then we got to write the show notes, upload it, share it on social. So it probably is about a six hour thing all in for one 30 to 45 minute episode.

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Michael Fulwiler (23:05):

Yeah, I mean, that's been my experience hosting this show. I think there's just so much that goes on behind the scene, and it's really a craft too, been some of the most meaningful work that I've done. So I get to have conversations like this. We'd love to talk about how you've built out your team and how you've thought about that. Who was the first person that you hired and what led to that?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (23:31):

I think the first person I hired was my executive assistant who is now our business manager. So I love that so many of my team members have been able to grow into different positions. That feels really important, which I think she was the first person I hired to help me with some of these interview requests. And as I got speaking engagements, I think she was the first person. And then the second person I hired was actually our community manager who's still our community manager, Jasmine, and we started, we have a Facebook group for the podcast called the Thrive Tribe where people kind of talk about the episodes and different kinds of mental health topics. And so every week when we would release the episode, Jasmine would, by Friday, have all of these notes about the episode like, Hey, I took notes about the podcast, I want to share it with the community. And I'm like, she's already community managing. I've got to hire her. So I think that that is also a very clear indication of how this business has been built, is that it has been very community first, it is very much paying attention to what kinds of things people say they want to hear. How do we respond when we know big things are happening in the community? And I feel like that is still kind of at the heart of what we do.

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Michael Fulwiler (24:41):

That makes a lot of sense. How big is the team

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Dr. Joy Bradford (24:43):

Today? So there are 14 people on the team now.

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Michael Fulwiler (24:46):

My goodness.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (24:46):

Yeah. Wow,

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Michael Fulwiler (24:47):

That's grown a lot. At least in the last few years.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (24:50):

It has it. Yeah. And I think as these different parts of the business expands, then it requires more and more people to kind of do that work.

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Michael Fulwiler (24:58):

Definitely. I remember reaching out to you, I don't know when that was, four or five years ago, I had left my job. I had started my own consulting business, and I offered to advise and work together. I don't know if I gave you much of a choice, but it was a, I'd love to work together, bio

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Dr. Joy Bradford (25:15):

Relationship.

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Michael Fulwiler (25:15):

Yeah, no, absolutely. But I think at the time you had a very small team and I just remember saying, we got to get some help. We got to get some other people in here. So I want to talk about speaking too. So for listeners who are interested in getting speaking opportunities, what advice would you have and what's worked well for you and what hasn't worked well in terms of getting speaking and also getting paid as a speaker?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (25:43):

So I will say that the podcast honestly is the biggest lead magnet. I think for me, I will say probably a good 75% if not more of the speaking engagements I get are because somebody listens to the podcast and then they want to bring me into their ERG group or their university or some organization they work with. So that could be a great thing. Now, I won't necessarily say that you need to start a podcast though, to use that as a lead magnet. Already heard me talk about how much work it is. So I wouldn't necessarily say to run out and start a podcast, but you could also do that by being an outstanding guest on podcasts. I have heard from a lot of the guests on therapy for Black Girls that people will listen to their episode and then reach out to them to book them to speak certain places. So I think that that's a hack that maybe a lot of people don't know is that you don't necessarily have to have your own podcast to be able to use podcasting as a great lead magnet for speaking.

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Michael Fulwiler (26:36):

We had a guest from the first season who reached out to me recently and said, the episode that we did was the highest ROI podcast appearance I've ever had. I've had all these people reach out to me for coaching. And so for me, that's great. If we can give folks who come on the show a platform where other therapists can connect with them and learn more about them, hear their stories, but also want to work with them, I think that's a win for everyone. I'm curious for you as a podcast host, what makes a good guest,

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Dr. Joy Bradford (27:09):

Somebody who's familiar with the podcast? I think now definitely, and you already heard me say my team is sometimes searching for particular guests to talk about a thing, but for people who are pitching the podcast, it really helps if you are familiar with the format and the kinds of topics that we talk about. So somebody who has done their research and their homework in terms of like, oh, I know they've talked about these kinds of things, but I think I could add this particular spin, or they haven't talked about this and I know this is really my lane. Let me pitch this to them. So somebody who has really done their research, who is good at using plain language to talk about some very heavy topic sometime, we really aim to not use a bunch of jargon on the podcast. The podcast is meant for a general listener.

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(27:54):

It's not like a clinician podcast. And so you may be great at what you do, but can you talk about it in a way that a general audience could listen to it? I think that that also makes a really good podcast guest and somebody who's not over-prepared. I think a lot of times people get anxious, this is weird, we are talking on this camera, but somebody who just is comfortable that they know their stuff and doesn't need to like, oh, what exact questions are you going to ask me? Because again, we do so much. We do great work as clinicians, and I think sometimes we can over prepare and that makes the conversation not flow as effortlessly as it would if you were just talking without being super rehearsed.

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Michael Fulwiler (28:35):

Yeah, I would agree with that. I used to share questions. If someone asked me who was coming on the show, Hey, could you send questions in advance? I'll absolutely do that because some people maybe just want to think about what they want to say, but I've moved away from that because yeah, it does end up feeling scripted and rehearsed and it doesn't flow as well.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (28:54):

Yeah, we do that too for people who ask, but most often I go off on a tangent, right? Something you say will spark some interest in me, and I'm not looking at the questions anyway. And so it can be helpful to give you just a framework for what you think the conversation will be, but also to just be open that the conversation could drift naturally.

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Michael Fulwiler (29:13):

Definitely. As you think about how to grow the podcast, are you thinking about bringing in guests who are higher profile or how do you select guests for your show?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (29:24):

Yeah, so I feel like we have a mix of guests who are higher profile and not higher profile. We really are more focused on the topics because I don't know that a higher profile guest necessarily indicates more interest. I think what typically is what drives listeners for us is that people really, really want this information because I think the episodes that do best for us are the ones where people get very tangible information about how to do something different in their lives, or it helps them to rethink something that they've been struggling with. And I don't think that that always translates to a higher profile guest.

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Michael Fulwiler (30:01):

And specifically for Black women, why is it so important to be receiving these resources and stories and access to mental health information?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (30:12):

I don't think it's any secret that we were not at the foundations of the field, and so many of the theories and the pioneers in the field did not necessarily have people like us in mind when they were developing these theories and these treatment plans and all of these things. And so I think it is really important to have the lens that we bring as Black women and to have conversations about what mental health looks like specifically for us. Now, understanding, of course, that Black women are not a monolith either, but I think when we share a variety of our experiences, it gets a little closer to something that everybody individually could kind of latch onto.

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Michael Fulwiler (30:50):

Being a therapist is about helping people, not crunching numbers, but when you're running your own practice, managing finances can feel like a full-time job one you never trained for. That's where Heard comes in. Heard is the financial management platform built just for therapists. No more cobbling together spreadsheets, DIY software or expensive accountants with Heard, you get bookkeeping, tax support and financial insights all in one easy to use platform. Heard was started by an accountant and a software engineer who understand the challenges you face as a business owner, our mission to make it incredibly easy for therapists to manage their practice as a business, build wealth, and stay focused on what matters most, their clients join thousands of therapists who trust her with their finances. Schedule a free consultation today at join her.com/consult. So we've talked about the podcast, we've talked about directory, we talk about speaking. You also wrote a book as if you didn't have enough.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (31:55):

As if there was not enough going on.

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Michael Fulwiler (31:58):

How did that come to be?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (32:00):

That actually came to be because of the podcast as well. So again, I think

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Michael Fulwiler (32:04):

Take away is just start a podcast. Everything else is just yeah.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (32:06):

I feel like this is becoming

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(32:07):

Promo for a starting a podcast. But podcast definitely don't start a podcast if you don't have the energy and time to do that. So Dr. Melvin Barkey had a program, I think it still exists, the Health Cast is where he taught mental health professionals how to actually podcast. So I had ideas but had no idea how do you have something that starts as an idea in your head and it to Apple? So he laid out all of the, here's how you do all the technical stuff, here's how you choose a name, here's how you plan for stuff. So that was an important part of my process as well. So if you are interested, then definitely look at Dr. Borges's work in the Healthcasters to maybe help you think about that. But the book came from my agent listening to the podcast. So she listened to a couple of episodes and I actually had conversations with several different agents all from the podcast people who, because the agent's job, they're always on the lookout for people who have some new interesting perspective, people who have growing platforms, that is their job to be on the lookout for these people.

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(33:07):

So when I had the conversation with the person who became my agent, she had listened to several episodes of the podcast and said, I think you have a book that should come out of this. And at the time I did end up signing with her, but we had had a conversation probably a year before I ever signed with her as my agent, because I didn't know what book I wanted to write. I figured at some point in my career I would write a book, but nothing felt very burning and pressing to me. And so I think when I did end up signing with her, we had a conversation about, she said, you will likely, there may be several books that you write in your life, but if you had to plant your flag in the ground and say, this is the first book that comes from Dr.

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(33:47):

Joy, what would it be about? And when she phrased it that way, then it felt like sisterhood was a very natural answer just because it felt like it was again at the central and the core of so much of the work that I had been doing at Therapy for Black Girls and Sisterhood, heal actually was supposed to be our very first in-person event. And so that was in 2020, and then of course, we know what 2020 came to be, and so we had to cancel it because of the pandemic. But in conversations with my agent, she said, what were you planning to do that weekend? What kinds of topics were you planning to cover? And that kind of became the loose outline for what Sisterhood Heals the book became.

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Michael Fulwiler (34:24):

Oh, interesting. So the book title actually came from an event?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (34:27):

That never happen eventually, hopefully since the hood heals, the event will happen, but it was from the event we had to cancel because of the pandemic.

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Michael Fulwiler (34:38):

And then tactically, what was the process like for you? It sounds like you had an agent. Did you have to write a proposal and did that get pitched to publishers? What was that process like? Can you walk me through that?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (34:48):

Yeah, so my agent was very, very hands-on in helping me to craft the proposal for the book. And I actually worked with another writer. I had never written a book proposal before, so you got to work with the experts who do the things that you're trying to do. And so she helped me to craft the proposal, which I think ended up being 15 to 20 pages. And your book proposal is kind of like, here's an outline of what I think I want to write in this book. And they usually ask for a sample chapter or at least a portion of a chapter that's substantial enough for them to get a feel of your writing style. Your book proposal also includes a little bit of a marketing plan. So how do you plan to get people to buy this book where you talk about what is your online reach, what famous friends do you have, what radio connections do you have?

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(35:34):

How are you planning to actually get this book out to the people, and what are the comparable titles that would be equivalent to your book? The book needs to make sense in the marketplace. So every now and then, I'm sure there's some kind of unicorn book, but people who have read and purchased other books, what book is your book in conversation with? And so your book proposal also includes a list of, here are some comparable titles that I think people who read this would also be interested in my book. And so after you complete the proposal, my agent sent it out to editors at certain houses. So Penguin Random House, well, that's who I signed with. I'm forgetting Harper Collins, all the major publishing houses. She sents it out to editors at those specific places who she thought would be a good fit. And then they do, what is it called, an auction? Well, actually we didn't go to auction because my editor kind of took it off the table before we went to auction, but they send it out and they kind of offer the highest bid, so to speak, and then you decide who you're going to go with.

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Michael Fulwiler (36:36):

We talked about therapy and therapists being predominantly white in a white industry book publishing. And so just great to have the opportunity to be able to have that book published. What was the actual book writing process like for you? Was that a grind?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (36:53):

Very much a grind, very much a grind. I also worked with another writer, Tracy Lewis Gigot, who helped me to write Sisterhood Heels. Again, I had never written a book, and so I would have these ideas of what I wanted the chapters to be, but she would also give me writing prompts and interview me and say, okay, go write about this and then help me to craft that into a story. Because what I found is that as therapists, we're trained to be very clinical in our language and give bare minimum because we only want to give case notes only what we would want discovered by an attorney. And so I found that I was writing in that way, and they were like, this is not making a good story. This is great for your case notes. This is not how you tell a story. And so she would also help me to make the language more flowery and okay, how do we actually get from point A to B and make this a good story? That was, I think, lifesaving to me, because otherwise I feel like I might still be toiling over trying to get the book done. But working with somebody who has written several books and worked with authors, I very much wanted it to still be my book and be in my words. Working with her I think was a saving grace to get that project done.

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Michael Fulwiler (38:01):

So she was an editor or ended up being a co-author,

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Dr. Joy Bradford (38:05):

So technically I think she's a ghost writer, and ghost writing I think can come in lots of different forms. So sometimes they just write it completely, they interview you and then kind of take your words and write it, but we kind of collaboratively worked on it where she would, again, give me prompts and I would write, and then we would craft it into something that became a chapter.

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Michael Fulwiler (38:23):

That makes sense. I think there's also this misconception that writing a book is something that makes you a lot of money, so I just want to talk about that as well, and just sort of the financial model of writing a book where you get an advance, right? So could you talk about that, and obviously you don't have to share specifics, but what that is like and how do you actually make money from writing a book? Yeah,

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Dr. Joy Bradford (38:50):

So when you work with a major publishing house, you typically get in advance, which is them saying like, okay, here's this money basically to kind of clear your schedule so that you can actually focus on writing this book. And so they give you an advance, but it is not all given to you at the same time, which I did not learn again until I was in the process. So you get, it's typically split into fourth, so you get a fourth when you sign, you get the next portion when you turn in your first completed manuscript, you get the third portion on the day of, not the day of, but generally around the time when the book is actually published and you don't get that fourth portion until a year after the book has been out. So it's split into a very long time interval there. And so again, thinking about finances and then the way that you make money when you hear people talk about royalties is if the publishing house makes their money back from that advance, anything after that is then what you would get in the form of royalties.

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Michael Fulwiler (39:50):

And those royalties generally aren't that much.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (39:53):

They're not.

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Michael Fulwiler (39:53):

I remember seeing checks the Gottman's would get, they sold millions of books and it's like a few hundred dollars. I remember being so surprised by that. And so I guess the takeaway, don't write a book if you want to make a lot of money, but just like having a podcast, I think writing a book also opens up other opportunities. Do you feel like that's opened up doors for you now being an author?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (40:15):

Yeah, and I think a lot of times people will also use them as a very fancy card because a very fancy business card because it does open up speaking engagements. So now typically when I would just maybe have a speaking fee in addition to my speaking fee, I typically require so many of my books to be purchased as a part of my speaking package. So it also is a great calling card, I think for people who want to do more speaking because you have a thing, people can go read the book and say, oh, we love to bring them in to speak on this topic or some element of the book. So again, I think it can also be used as a lead magnet. I would not say that most people are making a ton of money from writing books, especially as therapists. If you're still in private practice, you're still running your practice probably, and so you are not necessarily cracking out another book every year. Now, career authors might be making enough money, but if you're somebody who has one or two books, then probably you're not making enough money just writing books to really support yourself and your family.

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Michael Fulwiler (41:15):

Yeah, I've heard that If your goal is to be a professional author, the first book is to sell the second book, and then the second book is to tell the third. And then each time assuming that you have success, that advance goes

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Dr. Joy Bradford (41:27):

Up.

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Michael Fulwiler (41:28):

The other piece of this is that the work isn't done when the book is done.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (41:32):

No.

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Michael Fulwiler (41:35):

Now you actually have to market and promote the book. So what was that like?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (41:38):

Oh my gosh, it was so painful. It was so painful, Michael. I thought writing the book was a difficult part until I got to the marketing stage and was like, oh, this is so much worse, I think, than the writing piece of it because it's just a constant, you'd think, I think that books are easy to sell, even as somebody with a large platform in my own podcast where people are hearing me talk every week, that doesn't necessarily translate to people buying the book. And so it was an endless tour of podcast episodes, so doing episodes on my own podcast, but also being a guest on other people's podcasts. I did have a book tour for the book, and so I was in, I think six to eight different cities all in the span of maybe a month. It is very much a grind. You hear authors tell you to get prepared for that launch week hurricane.

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(42:29):

But honestly, I think until you're in it, you can't really know what it's going to be. It just is kind of never ending because the marketing or the publishing company does a lot in the beginning, right at your launch window. But beyond that first month, you really are on your own to figure out how are you going to keep momentum going for your book sales. And so you think, I think because you're signed to a big publishing company that like, oh, they're the machine behind this, but that machine kind of goes away and moves on to whoever is next in line with their book.

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Michael Fulwiler (43:04):

So with all that said, are you thinking about a second book?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (43:08):

No, no, because I think it uprooted so many things. Just the writing of it was difficult. I mean, in addition to all of my work, I'm also a wife and a mom, and so it just kind of took time away from so many things. I also feel like I did not have as much control in the book writing process as I thought as somebody who has kind of built all of these things where I can choose the color and I can choose what I want this to look like, the book cover I had some say in but was not my final. I didn't have final say so in any of it. And so I didn't like or having to give up so much control of the creative of what this product with my name was became. So I just didn't love that. And the marketing piece just was not at all for me. So I really am not thinking that another book is in my near future, at least right now.

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Michael Fulwiler (44:02):

It is interesting as somebody who hosts a podcast and is kind of used to this format, going on podcasts, doing interviews, it has to be different because you're out there promoting your book versus having a conversation. And it sounds like that shift you just didn't really like.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (44:19):

Well, no, it wasn't even necessarily the being a guess, it was just the quantity, right? I mean, because trying to sell as many books as possible, so it would not be uncommon for me to have eight to 10 podcast interviews in a week where I'm used to, maybe we record two or three a week. And so it's just a very different shift, and the quantity of it I think just became a lot as we were leading up to launch.

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Michael Fulwiler (44:43):

That makes sense. And I'm curious, how are you managing your energy and your time now? I know that you and the team, you take some time off over the holidays, which is nice, right? You guys just shut down for a month or so. How were you thinking about speaking engagements and appearances and where you're spending your energy?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (45:03):

Yeah, so one of the byproducts of the pandemic is that I got very comfortable at my house. So it takes a lot for me to even leave the house at this point. And again, my two little ones who are not so little anymore, my oldest will be heading to middle school next year, and so I really want to be present for those kinds of things. And so I feel like I'm much more calculated around, okay, I'm leaving my house, but at what cause. So it has to be worth it to me in terms of where am I going? I'm also not somebody who really loves to travel. And so those are not like, oh, I have so much fun being on a plane and being in a hotel. I actually don't love that. So I think it takes a lot of energy and I need energy then to come back. And so I am much more judicious with my yes to speaking engagements. They really have to make sense for me to want to do them. And the podcast and the Patreon, we just launched our Patreon channel that is consuming a lot of my energy, and so it really requires me to be as hands-on as possible and not be in six different states at a time. And so I don't do as much speaking anymore, but when I do, they tend to be bigger conferences or things that I'm really, really interested in.

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Michael Fulwiler (46:16):

Let's talk about Patreon because you had the Sister Circle community. So can you tell me about the evolution of that?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (46:24):

Yeah, so there has always, as you heard me talk about the Facebook group started basically when the podcast started because one of the things that Melvin talked about as a part of the HealthCast was that you want a place for people to talk about your podcast, you get people excited, and then they want to have a place to talk about it. So that was something that he talked about is having a community that you allowed your listeners to go to talk about the podcast that started with the podcast and really has just evolved as the brand has grown and as the podcast has grown, the Facebook group is still there and that's free, but we also needed to have people in place to be able to moderate conversations. When you're having mental health kinds of conversations, it's important to have people there who are monitoring and offering resources and paying attention to things.

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(47:07):

And so that comes at a cause, which means that at some point we have to have paid offerings as a part of our community. And so we started on Mighty Networks in what we call the Sister Circle, which was originally the Yellow Couch Collective. It had several different names, but basically it was like a paid community, like a Facebook group, but you kind of owned it and it was on a separate platform. And then recently we did some market research and we found that people didn't really understand what was going on in Mighty Networks. It felt very confusing to them, and they didn't necessarily know what was happening. And Patreon, I think is something that is more familiar to people who listen to podcasts because so many podcasters have them. And so I think you hear Patreon, oh, this is additional content we give. These are conversations we can have.

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(47:57):

And so last month we made the switch to have our community hosted on Patreon now, and so we've been really excited with the kinds of conversations that we're having there, but we've also launched some additional segments from the podcast. So we have an ask Dr. Joyce segment where I answer questions from members of the Patreon community that they have around career or relationship stuff, kind of general topics. And then we have another segment called, so My therapist is where we kind of unpack some of the hot takes that people have on social media around mental health, and it's me and another therapist typically. So we've released the first episode of that, and it was all about using AI as a therapist. As your therapist, we see lots of people talk about, oh, is AI going to replace therapist? And so I really wanted to bring in another colleague to talk about what are some of the pros and cons that you may not be aware of using AI. You're excited about being able to offer additional content that is beyond just what we talk about on the podcast.

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Michael Fulwiler (48:54):

I love that there's a lot of folks who are listening who probably have a Facebook group that's free or some sort of community that they manage. And so I'm curious, based on your experience, are there certain things that have worked in order to get people from a free community to a paid community or just learnings that you've had?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (49:14):

I think at some points you do have to introduce a paid version because again, I think if you're talking about any kinds of mental health topics, you definitely need somebody in there moderating, right? And so it probably can't be you because you're building and running your practice, and so that means somebody has to be involved and those people need to be taken care of. And so I think at some point, maybe sooner than later, introducing some kind of, even if it is a minimal fee, that does help you to support taking care of the group and making sure it's a quality space. I think that that's something that's really important. I also thinking about what kinds of topics or what kinds of offerings do you want to have as a part of your community, because you, of course, have to be careful. Anybody with a license, you have to be very clear that what you're doing is not to be confused with therapy or that people don't think that they are in a therapeutic relationship with you. And so I think making sure that you are thinking about what exactly is it that you're offering as a part of your community and making sure that people understand what the offer is.

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Michael Fulwiler (50:17):

Yeah, I think those disclosures, disclaimers, that's all super important. I know on your show, I think at the beginning you say, this is not therapy.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (50:25):

This is not

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Michael Fulwiler (50:26):

Therapy. You cannot sue me. You offered an event for therapists for the first time last year Heard was involved. I was actually supposed to speak, and then I got COVID the day before I was supposed to come down, which was very disappointing, but it's happening again. Could you tell our listeners about that and just some details about the event?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (50:48):

Yeah, so this is our second therapist summit because again, the community kept saying they wanted places where they could connect. I think therapists sometimes feel pretty isolated, especially if you're not in a group practice or if you're in a city where they're not a lot of other black therapists. We got feedback that people really wanted to be able to come together with colleagues, and especially in a post pandemic or wherever we are in that space, people wanted to kind of be back outside and connecting with people in person. And so we had our first event last year, and then it is coming back this year, July 24th through the 26th. Again, in Atlanta, at some point we may look at different cities, but it's easier here in Atlanta,

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Michael Fulwiler (51:25):

Right? You don't want to leave.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (51:27):

Right. And I already said, I don't love leaving.

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Michael Fulwiler (51:31):

We got to come to you.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (51:32):

You got to come to me. But it really is designed to be, how do you think about scaling your practice and also how are you taking care of yourself? So we are planning to have some conversations this year around how to contracts as a therapist, because as more of us have done more in social media, have different kinds of brand deals and partnerships with different organizations, you need to know what people are asking you for. And that's not our training. And so we want to have a conversation around that. Also, a conversation around what does it look like to maybe recession proof your practice? Because I know that that is a looming concern for people. Like what's happening? Are people going to start scaling back on what they're offering? And I think as therapists, we have so much to offer in terms of a private practice, but also workbooks and speaking engagements and podcasts. There are lots of ways that our skills can be transferable to other places. And so thinking about what a next step in your practice could be, but also just some time for fun and hanging out with other therapists where you don't have to kind of be on, but really can get some good networking in with other colleagues.

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Michael Fulwiler (52:36):

Something we've talked about is therapists seem to have just some zoom fatigue, especially if they're doing sessions online, they're doing their CEEs online. And so just the opportunity to connect in person that space, I mean it's so needed. And so definitely go check that out. We'll get this episode out before that, so make sure that beautiful folks don't have time to sign up. We're coming to the end here, so I have some rapid fire questions to wrap us up. How's that sound?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:06):

Okay? Sounds good. I love a good rapid fire.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:08):

Alright, who is one guest that you want to have on the podcast that you haven't yet?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:13):

Beyonce.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:19):

Duh. Who would be your second choice?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:22):

Oh, Issa Rae.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:24):

We're manifesting that.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:25):

Yes, we're manifesting.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:26):

They're both coming on the show. What about a podcast that you would like to be a guest on?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:30):

Oh, I've done so many cool podcasts.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:35):

Even maybe a TV show.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:37):

I probably would have to say the Oprah podcast, just because I feel like lot, she has a lot of super soul kinds of conversations that neatly align with my work. So maybe Oprah's podcast.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:48):

I was going to suggest a Jennifer Hudson show. It's your walkout.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (53:52):

Oh, yes. But everybody doesn't get a tunnel, so I might not get a tunnel and I'd be disappointed.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:59):

That's funny. What's one thing that you wish people understood about mental health for Black women?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (54:05):

I wish that more people understood that Black women are not robots and that we deserve the same gentleness and care that is offered to other people.

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Michael Fulwiler (54:13):

Finally, what's one thing you want therapists to take away from this conversation?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (54:18):

I want therapists to take away the idea, to stay curious and to think about all of the different ways that the skills that we have can be transferred to other places. So practice is a great way to start, and if that's all you want to do, then that's great, but I think a lot of people will have interest in doing other things and reaching more people, and I think the sky really is the limit on what that can look like for you.

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Michael Fulwiler (54:40):

Love it. Dr. Joy, thank you so much. For folks who want to connect with you, where can they find you and learn more about the work that you do?

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Dr. Joy Bradford (54:48):

Yeah, so I am at Hello, Dr. Joy, across all of the social media channels. My website is hello dr joy.com, and then you can pay attention and keep up with everything at Therapy for Black Girls at therapyforblackgirls.com.

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Michael Fulwiler (55:01):

Amazing. We'll drop all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much. Very grateful for you and grateful for our friendship.

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Dr. Joy Bradford (55:07):

Thank you, Michael. It was great to chat with you.

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Michael Fulwiler (55:10):

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School, brought to you by Heard, the financial management platform for therapists. To get the class notes for this week's episode, go to join her.com/podcast. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.

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