How to Charge Premium Rates Without Guilt with Amanda Buduris

Amanda Buduris (00:00):

Being an overachiever, I was like, I can do that all myself. That would make sense. I can have an Excel sheet or find some way to do all that. And my partner's pretty savvy with finances, so I very briefly had the thought of like, I'm just going to do it all myself. And then I realized I'm working a part-time job. I'm working a full-time job, I'm starting a new business. I can't do it all myself.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:25):

This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. This week I'm joined by Heard member Dr. Amanda Buduris, a licensed psychologist who specializes in trauma, attachment and relational therapies with advanced training in Brainspotting, EMDR and the Safe and Sound Protocol. Amanda is also the founder of Amanda KB Coaching, where she supports mental health professionals with business coaching. In our conversation, we talk about her decision to pivot away from typical 50 minute therapy sessions to offering intensives and how that's transformed her business. We also talk about pay transparency, premium pricing, and how therapists can get more comfortable charging $350 to $500 per hour. Here's my conversation with Dr. Amanda Buduris. Enjoy. Dr. Amanda Buduris, welcome to the show.

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Amanda Buduris (01:32):

Hi. Thanks for having me.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:33):

Did I get that right?

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Amanda Buduris (01:35):

You got everything right? It's a long list of things. Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:37):

Great. I'm glad that we rehearsed. First question for you, what is a Safe and Sound Protocol Provider? I haven't heard that before.

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Amanda Buduris (01:45):

Yeah. The Safe and Sound Protocol is essentially, it's a listening therapy that is set at different frequencies that retune the nervous system, specifically the vagus nerve, in order to help people feel more grounded, more stable, more present. So it's a really cool thing. My specialty is complex trauma, and a lot of people who have had complex trauma don't have a fully engaged vagus nerve that tells them they're safe in situations. So this is a really cool thing that I use in addition to Brainspotting, EMDR or just talk therapy to help people still work on how their body feels in different interactions and situations.

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Michael Fulwiler (02:26):

Definitely. Yeah. We're going to get into your work for sure. Before we do that, you're from the Midwest, so you're from Chicago, went to school in Iowa. What was that experience like for you in graduate school?

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Amanda Buduris (02:42):

Yeah, graduate school was overwhelming in a lot of different ways. I'm first gen in a lot of ways, so I had no idea what to expect with grad school. I honestly just applied to a bunch of different places and whoever would take me I would like. Great. That sounds amazing. I applied to master's programs, I applied to doc programs and Iowa State University, which is where I ended up, offered me a full scholarship, and that just made complete sense to do that and save money. So it was never my goal to stay in Iowa for nine years, but I stayed in Iowa for nine years.

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Michael Fulwiler (03:15):

When I saw Iowa, especially from Chicago. Did you grow up in the city in Chicago?

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Amanda Buduris (03:19):

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler (03:20):

Okay. So that's got to be a big adjustment.

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Amanda Buduris (03:22):

Yes, huge to go from Chicago to a small town of 9,000 people, which includes the college campus.

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Michael Fulwiler (03:31):

And at what point did you start to get curious about becoming a therapist as a career?

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Amanda Buduris (03:39):

I maybe had some curiosity in high school. That was my first time with even talking with the high school guidance counselor, and I was like, this is stupid. Why do you want to know about my life? But then I was like, wait, it's actually helpful to talk to someone. And then in undergrad was my first time really like, okay, I want to try ongoing therapy. And that experience was just so life-changing for me to be able to have someone who's dedicated and supportive to help me see the world in just such different ways. And I was like, okay, this is really cool. Actually, I want to do this for other people too.

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Michael Fulwiler (04:14):

That's awesome. And so when you were in grad school, is there a particular type of therapy that you wanted to practice? I always am curious why folks are drawn towards psychology over social work, over being a mental health counselor.

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Amanda Buduris (04:30):

I had no idea what all the differences were between all the fields. I was like, I just want to be a therapist. I applied to social work programs as well. I think what made me choose the counseling psychology doctorate program was honestly mostly the financial thing of it was going to be free and they were going to pay me a stipend, so that was great. But yeah, I think it was just I wanted to know a little bit about a lot. I wanted to very much like the generalist approach that we hear a lot of people talking about. I was like, great, I just want to know about everything. And so the counseling psych degree opened up that option for me to really focus in on that. And then after there, it was just a matter of getting more counseling experience and seeing what are the types of clients that I really liked working with. And then that became clearer each year.

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Michael Fulwiler (05:16):

Yeah. Can you talk more about that? Did you start seeing clients when you were in grad school?

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Amanda Buduris (05:21):

Yes. Yeah. We started, I think our second semester through. Poor Psych 101 students. They could do all these different studies that they sign up for. And one of the studies was you can be counseled in a lab and have your sessions recorded by these counseling students as training.

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Michael Fulwiler (05:38):

Exactly what I want to do.

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Amanda Buduris (05:39):

Right, exactly. Surprisingly, people signed up for it. So that was my very first experience in that first year of grad school. And then in our second year, we went straight into the student counseling center. So the majority of my clinical work is student counseling centers.

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Michael Fulwiler (05:54):

Is that with undergrads?

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Amanda Buduris (05:57):

Yes.

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Michael Fulwiler (05:58):

Okay. So you're probably, there's not that much of an age difference.

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Amanda Buduris (06:02):

Yeah, exactly.

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Michael Fulwiler (06:03):

What was that like? Did you feel like they were kind of your peers?

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Amanda Buduris (06:07):

In some ways, but also even when I was 23, 24 meeting with 18 or 19 year olds, some of them were like, you kind of feel like a big sister or a mentor or things like that. So that was weird in a different way. I was like, so now I don't know how seriously you take me, but they valued the work, so I'll take it.

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Michael Fulwiler (06:26):

And did you like working with college aged kids?

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Amanda Buduris (06:30):

I did, because that was my experience of being 18 or 19 and being like, I'm trying to figure out the world and figure out what it means to be independent in my own person. I resonated a lot with the people who were coming in feeling like now I'm finally getting away from my family and trying to figure out who I am, and this adjustment is hard. So I knew that experience very well. So I felt like effective in how I can have conversations and give tips and strategies for coping and adjusting.

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Michael Fulwiler (06:57):

And when you graduated, did you continue to work for the College Counseling Center?

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Amanda Buduris (07:01):

Yes. Yeah, a different one. I moved from Iowa out to Oregon for my internship to finish my program, and I worked for three more years at a counseling center.

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Michael Fulwiler (07:12):

And was private practice on your radar at the time? Was that a goal that you had?

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Amanda Buduris (07:18):

No, not at all. I knew nothing about starting a business. I knew nothing about managing insurance. I knew nothing about nothing, and so I was like college counseling. I know that feels very comfortable. When I took my first full-time job, I was like, I think I'll stay here five, 10 years and then figure something else out. But even then I wasn't thinking private practice. I was just like, let's see where this goes. But I had no one in my world that did private practice at that point, so it was just never something I was thinking about.

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Michael Fulwiler (07:52):

Yeah, that makes sense because talked to therapists on the show who work at a group practice right out of school, and so they get that exposure to the business side, and it almost is an internship in a way where you're learning how to run a business. And so at what point did you then start to dip your toes into private practice?

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Amanda Buduris (08:14):

It was a year and a half into my first full-time job. So number one, I had started that job because they were like, we have so many openings, so many people have left. And I was like, oh, okay. An easy job to get into. Great. I don't think I processed, why are there so many openings? So about a year and a half into it, I really understood why, and it was just they were really overloading the therapists with work, which on paper it meant 16 to 20 clients a week, but it was also higher acuity clients. There was just a lot of need and a lot of you thought this was going to be your admin time, but actually nevermind. We need you to see this person who might need to get hospitalized. So it was just very high pressure and it wasn't a lot of, I think they would say, we value you, we appreciate you, we see you. But then there wasn't even the pizza party that goes with that. Right. They're like, okay, I got to get out of here. And I think one of my people...

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Michael Fulwiler (09:19):

That's why everyone left, right? Because there wasn't enough pizza.

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Amanda Buduris (09:22):

Exactly. Yeah, if only there was more. But someone I really connected with at the counseling center, they had just left maybe three months before. Then I knew some other people from grad program who were just starting to go into their own, if not private practice, a group practice. So I was just like, okay, clearly this is a viable option. I have no idea what it means to pursue it, but I'm going to start talking with people about it because I could see it was not going to work for me to stay at that job long-term when not only that's what it looked like, but we knew it was going to get worse.

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Michael Fulwiler (09:54):

Right. And what year was this?

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Amanda Buduris (09:57):

This was the end of 2021, so I'll also pandemic and everything happened. Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler (10:03):

Wow. Yeah, and I know that college health in particular was just a huge challenge during the pandemic. So at this point, are you seeing clients virtually then?

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Amanda Buduris (10:16):

Yes. Yeah. At that point it was mostly virtual, but then there was honestly more pressure from the school of even though you can do it virtual, it looks better for the reputation of the school if we're also meeting students where they're at, and some people want in person, so you are going to offer in person regardless of even if you care about your safety. So it was awkward to do masks therapy and the full N45 masks, and you have to be so far, and it's like clients are crying and taking these masks up and then you're worried about safety. So it was just, it was not a good time.

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Michael Fulwiler (10:50):

No, it sounds intense.

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Amanda Buduris (10:51):

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler (10:52):

So you start talking to people and what are you hearing from these conversations?

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Amanda Buduris (10:58):

I think the biggest theme I heard was, it's easier than you think, but it seems like it's going to be really hard and it'll take a lot of work and adjustment. But after you figure out all of the business and financial part of it, then it's just you get to do your job, but you feel more effective and more rested. And I was like, okay, great. Perfect. That sounds like that is for me.

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Michael Fulwiler (11:17):

Great. Yeah. And then how did you go about learning those things?

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Amanda Buduris (11:23):

Lots of after conversations with some of my peers. I dove into a lot of podcasts, Facebook groups, and just to learn, okay, what are the actual resources? I have no idea how to start with paperwork. I have no idea how to choose an EHR. I have no idea about taxes. So I just wanted to learn as much and hear as much information from as many different sources as possible because that it was overwhelming at the time to be hearing and listening and learning so much, but it felt like it also gave me the biggest picture around if I'm going to feel confident making this really scary leap, then at least I have all the information and I know what I need to do.

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Michael Fulwiler (12:02):

Were there particular podcasts? I know this show wasn't around at the time, but particular podcasts or groups that you found to be really helpful more than others?

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Amanda Buduris (12:12):

Yeah. There was probably the biggest one I was listening to at the time was Private Practice Startup. So they were huge on giving all the different resources, talking about paperwork. I want to say The Abundance Podcast was live at that time, All Things Private Practice. So those were the three big ones that I would listen to just to hear snippets of insurance or non-insurance, what do I do with money? What do I do with niching down? And just thinking of all these different aspects.

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Michael Fulwiler (12:40):

That's awesome. So then how did you start to take that learning and put it into action? What were the steps that you took to actually start to launch this business?

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Amanda Buduris (12:51):

Luckily enough, my partner actually at the time was working for the state in a sector that helps small businesses. So I was going to him with a lot of, how do I register my business? How do I get an EIN, how do I do all these things that I have to do? So he helped with that component, listening to all these different podcasts around choose this EHR or this one. Then I was demoing different EHRs. I was thinking through, I got way too neurotic and anxious at the beginning around doing telehealth that I didn't want to do in person yet. I got a certificate that I probably didn't need. And being a board certified telehealth provider, something like that, it was very boring course, but I suppose it was helpful. So I did all the background set up to feel as confident as possible, started a website, started trying to learn some different resources on what exactly should be on a website, how do I design a website, and then looked into the financial pieces. I knew I was going to miss something there not knowing what it was, and Heard was something that was frequently recommended. So I signed up with Heard before I even took on my first client. I was like, I just need this to be in the background running very, very well. So those were all the starting steps and then launched my website. And then actually I got my first client within two weeks of that, which was really, really cool.

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Michael Fulwiler (14:16):

Amazing. And was that someone who found you through your website and reached out?

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Amanda Buduris (14:20):

They found me because my partner posted in a local Reddit group. Hey, my friend's partner just opened up a private practice. Here's their website if anyone's interested. And someone was like, Hey, I found you on Reddit. So yeah, it's a viable resource.

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Michael Fulwiler (14:36):

I love that. I feel like Reddit is very underrated as a marketing channel. Reddit, it is a form of social media. I think people don't think about Instagram and YouTube, but there's a therapist sub Reddit. I see people posting for referrals all the time. And it's interesting to hear that that's how you got your first client. And so as you're starting to think about building your business, getting it off the ground, did you have a niche or kind of an ideal client that you were trying to attract?

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Amanda Buduris (15:10):

Yes. Yeah, I felt pretty confident probably in the last couple of years in my grad program and then more on internship and more in my first job, what I really liked working with was trauma as a niche, specifically complex trauma and attachment trauma. And then out of that, I started getting some experience with couples work. So I dove into a lot of training when I went into my own private practice to learn Gottman, EFT, and I want to learn more about relational life therapy. But that's a back burner training because too many trainings at once. But yeah, trauma and couples work were the very clear things that I was like, these are the people I get. These are the people I feel really effective with. These are the people who I look forward to working with compared to when I work for someone else. It was work with whoever we need you to work with, and that didn't feel good. So trauma in couples is where I really narrowed down into.

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Michael Fulwiler (16:01):

And are you still working full-time at this time? And is that kind of starting to see clients on the side?

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Amanda Buduris (16:09):

At that time? Yes. I was working, I think that first client I took was maybe when I was in the last three months of work. I had probably four evening clients before I left the job officially. So I was just putting the word out there trying to get some people. I was like, if I can just replace my income from this agency, I will feel good enough to leave. So I started getting more people booking them out for a couple months later. So that also helped me feel more confident.

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Michael Fulwiler (16:41):

That makes sense. And is that something that you disclosed to your employer that I'm starting to see clients on the side or because it was separate, you felt like you didn't need to?

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Amanda Buduris (16:52):

Yeah, I honestly felt scared to do that. The emotional social culture of the workplace didn't feel like that would be supported, honestly. Worried I would get in trouble if I said, oh, I'm doing private practice on the side. It didn't feel like that would be celebrated by the environment. So it was very much me feeling sneaky about it, which also didn't feel great, but was another sign that I have to leave.

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Michael Fulwiler (17:18):

Yeah, definitely. And what about the clients that you were seeing and working with in your full-time job? Did you tell them you were leaving? Were you able to take some of them with you? How did that work?

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Amanda Buduris (17:31):

Yeah, that part was actually maybe a little easier. At that point, I was on a 10 month contract with the school, so I was going to be on break for July and August anyway, so they already knew, oh, at the end of June we'll be wrapping up our work. So with some of the people who were like, and when I come back for the fall, I want to start working with you again. Those would be the people I'd have the conversations with. I'm like, actually, this is what it's going to look like. I'm moving away. There were some clients who expressed interest in continuing to work together, but I think only one of them did. It was a grad student who was like, if you can offer sliding scale, absolutely, I want to keep working with you. So that felt good for me. But yeah, those conversations at least were a little easier. It would've been a forced goodbye anyway.

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Michael Fulwiler (18:18):

Right. And how are you thinking about setting your rates? I know that's a challenge for a lot of therapists, especially in the beginning, and were you going to take insurance? Were you just going to be cash pay? How were you thinking about that?

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Amanda Buduris (18:32):

Yeah, I had, listening to all these different podcasts, being in different groups, I saw a variety of advice around things. So I did the maybe typical advice that people say of look on psychology today and see what other people are charging. And I saw some, but even back then, which is only three years ago at this point, there weren't a lot of people actively disclosing their rates. It would just be blank and it would either say Accepts insurance or accepts cash, or something like that. So of the people I found about $185 seemed to be kind of average. So I was like, okay, I'll set it at that. But then I got really scared that no one would work with me at that rate, so I dropped it to 125, maybe within a couple of weeks. That first client who reached out to me from Reddit was like, do you offer sliding scale? I was like, sure, I just need any client. So we agreed on 85 and I was like, great, I'm getting paid 80 freshman dollars an hour, which felt very exciting. Obviously would not be sustainable for all my clients to be at that rate. But yeah, started at 125, I think that's where I took on four or five clients at that rate. And then every few months after that, it would go up for new clients. And then every year all my existing clients came up 25 ish dollars.

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Michael Fulwiler (19:54):

That makes sense. How long did it take to get to a point where you felt like you had a full caseload in terms of the number of clients that you wanted to be working with?

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Amanda Buduris (20:03):

So yeah, I had those four or five clients by the end of June, and then I went full time in my practice. I want to say I felt full, which for me was like 15 to 20 clients a week in September, October. So within six months, which also felt really safe and secure to have that.

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Michael Fulwiler (20:23):

Oh, that's great. It sounds like it was pretty smooth, but looking back, were there missteps or mistakes that you made that you learned from?

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Amanda Buduris (20:35):

Yes, it sounds smooth, but it very much wasn't because yeah, it was that combination of what do I set my full fee at? How do I get clients at that full fee, feeling anxious? How long is it going to take to fill my caseload? And so I'm trying to find all these different avenues of how to get clients. So I joined, I interviewed for slash joined a couple of EAPs, but those clients never turned out to be good fits. So that was just hard clinically too to again feel like I went into private practice, but now I'm being forced into generalist role and I don't get a choice in my clients. It's just who are they handing to me? I did go in network through Alma for maybe three or four months. At that point I only took maybe two or three clients, but again, realized all of these different platforms.

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(21:22):

I have to do this EAP note, and here I have to do this Alma note and billing over here. That just felt a little too much for me. So then I made the decision to, I need to get off of this insurance. I need to get off of these EAP panels so that everything is just a little bit more centralized. Otherwise it was just going to be too chaotic. So I filled my caseload quickly, but then after I made those transitions, some clients left, but then all my marketing efforts were also helping to bring some clients back in. So it was wavy for sure. It was not very smooth.

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Michael Fulwiler (21:55):

That's interesting. If you had to do it again, would you have joined those different platforms just to get started? Or do you wish that you had just kind of trusted your process and your fee had been your fee?

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Amanda Buduris (22:08):

I go back and forth on that sometimes when I think about it, because doing it as chaotic as it felt at the time, it did at least bring me the financial security of this can work. I don't have to think about going back to my job and being like, nevermind, I couldn't make it work. Take me back, please. And they probably would've. So it helped in that sense, but I think it really probably wasn't until, so yeah, I started part-time April 2022, probably around January 2023 is when clients coming in more frequently actually felt easier, which also made getting off the insurance panels and the EAPs easier of like, okay, people are coming through my website. People are more qualified leads through psychology today as opposed to looking for who has the lowest fear or something like that. So I probably would've still done it just it felt secure and helped me not feel like moving into private practice was a mistake, but it's just a part of a chaos.

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Michael Fulwiler (23:07):

And not everyone has the privilege to wait until their caseload fills up with full fee private pay clients. So if you have to sign up for those services in the meantime, there's nothing wrong with that. So you said you joined Heard pretty quickly. Was it before you even started seeing clients?

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Amanda Buduris (23:30):

Yeah. Yeah. I started my business officially registered with the state in January, and I probably signed up with Heard by March and saw my first client late April. So that was just another one of those. I need all my ducks to be in a row so that nothing goes awry. I don't miss anything.

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Michael Fulwiler (23:47):

Yeah. And what was your perspective at the time towards bookkeeping and taxes and accounting? How did you feel about it?

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Amanda Buduris (23:55):

Being an overachiever, I was like, I can do that all myself. That would make sense. I can have an Excel sheet or find some way to do all that. And my partner's pretty savvy with finances, so I very briefly had the thought of, I'm just going to do it all myself. And then I realized I'm working a part-time job, I'm working a full-time job, I'm starting a new business. I can't do it all myself. So just like I knew it was going to have to be something that I outsourced and I wanted it to be something I could trust, and just being able to know Heard was specifically for therapists in private practice. Hearing about it on these different podcasts, seeing some of the reviews in these Facebook groups, I was like, okay, this just makes sense. Let's just do it, bite the bullet and trust that everything's going to be fine and I'll be taken care of.

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Michael Fulwiler (24:41):

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like her being for a therapist was something that resonated with you. Why do you feel like that's important?

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Amanda Buduris (24:49):

I think even just my lack of knowing things about business generally, knowing ways in which even as a grad student having trying to work with an H and R block or something like that, or TurboTax, they felt so disconnected. They didn't feel very warm. They were just like, business is business, which yes is true. And it felt different to have someone who knew all the intricacies of the work and being able to read, here's all the ways we're looking at how you can find your deductions as a therapist in private practice. It just already felt more personalized and warm, which I was like, that's what I need, doing this really scary thing. I need something that feels like a good relationship with an accountant, a bookkeeper, as opposed to just who can do the things but do it quick and dirty as opposed to in a caring way.

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Michael Fulwiler (25:46):

Absolutely. The time saving piece that you mentioned I feel like is also really important because even if you're working with a bookkeeper or an accountant, but they don't really understand therapy practices, you're going to spend a lot of time explaining to them what simple practice is or what Jane is or what this insurance deposit where that's from. So I think there's value in that as well. And I know when we've talked about this in the past, you shared with me that you're spending a week or two doing your own books and finances, which doesn't feel like that much time, but an hour a week is 50 hours a year, and then you start to do the math and it's like, well, wait a second. If I'm spending 50 hours a year, even if I charged a hundred dollars a session, that's $5,000 of income potential that I've lost. And sounds like from the beginning that was something that you saw the value of outsourcing and getting your time back, but also the peace of mind too.

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Amanda Buduris (26:51):

Yes, and with all the new things I was learning and trying to be organized with, here's all my business docs, here's all my receipts. Even just knowing I'm going to lose a receipt, I am going to lose track of how much I spent on what and why did I spend $80 at Target? Was that personal? Was that office thing? Just knowing someone else would help me keep track of that, I was like, okay, that's more trust that I'm not going to forget things. I'm going to maximize everything as much as possible.

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Michael Fulwiler (27:21):

Being a therapist is about helping people, not crunching numbers, but when you're running your own practice, managing finances can feel like a full-time job one you never trained for. That's where Heard comes in. Heard is the financial management platform built just for therapists. No more cobbling together spreadsheets, DIY software or expensive accountants. With Heard, you get bookkeeping, tax support and financial insights all in one easy to use platform. Heard was started by an accountant and a software engineer who understand the challenges you face as a business owner. Our mission? To make it incredibly easy for therapists to manage their practice as a business, build wealth and stay focused on what matters most, their clients. Join thousands of therapists who trust Heard with their finances. Schedule a free consultation today at joinheard.com/consult.

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(28:18):

Definitely. So you're building your practice. You kind of get to a point where you're feeling good about the number of clients that you have. At what point did you start offering business coaching for other therapists?

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Amanda Buduris (28:32):

I probably pretty quickly within I was full-time, yeah, in July and within two to three months I had a couple of my colleagues asking for help. They were like, okay, this seems to work for you. Are you happy that you left? Can you teach me and tell me what's going on? So already at that point I was helping people for free, which felt good to do because they were friends, they were colleagues, and then I kept having people reaching out for, how did you do it? How did you get booked so fast? How do you get people at that fee? How do you market yourself? Your website looks great. And I was like, okay, this feels really exciting to feel helpful in therapy. For the most part, I feel helpful, but I think also most therapists feel like times where they're like, am I actually being helpful? What are we doing here? What if we're stuck? What's going on? Whereas business coaching feels like there's always ideas I can have around what someone can look into, what someone can tweak, what someone can do, and that always felt, so there's consistent movement in the ball rolling in that way. But yeah, so I've been doing it more informally probably pretty soon after I started. So then in 2023 is when I established a official business around it of how can I help more people and offer a variety of services of ways that I help people.

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Michael Fulwiler (29:47):

And when you say establish a business, what do you mean by that? What were the steps that you took?

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Amanda Buduris (29:52):

Yes, so literally doing everything over again in terms of registering new business with the state, opening up a second Heard account because I was like, I'm not doing this again. Literally everything from scratch, a new website thinking through new marketing, a new social media platform. So at least the nice thing was I had already done it once, so I knew exactly what I was doing. But yeah, doing everything very officially. I know that's a big question with therapy and coaching. Some people do it all under one business. A lot of people I've talked with recommended and so that's what I did to just make it a totally separate thing.

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Michael Fulwiler (30:27):

Is that like a legal thing or an ethical thing to just keep things separate as far as you understand that?

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Amanda Buduris (30:33):

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, especially when some of my therapy clients are and have been other therapists, and so it's also helpful for me to have a very distinct of we are not doing business coaching in our therapy relationship, and also we're not doing therapy in our business coaching relationship. So I think it's mostly a legal thing, but then I think of the ethics when it comes to dual roles when I'm working with therapists in multiple capacities.

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Michael Fulwiler (30:58):

I think with therapy and business coaching, there's a pretty clear distinction. I think when it's therapy and life coaching or relationship coaching or something executive coaching, then it feels a little bit more of a gray area. But definitely best practice, that's what we recommend at her. Just keep things separate. Even the bank accounts, just keep them separate so it's a lot cleaner. And then when you go to do your taxes too at the end of the year, just having separate businesses just keeps things a lot more organized. Your accountant will appreciate it.

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Amanda Buduris (31:30):

Absolutely.

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Michael Fulwiler (31:30):

I'm curious, the therapist that you work with in your business coaching, what are some of the common things that come up? Questions that they have, the things that they struggle with?

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Amanda Buduris (31:42):

There's a few different things. I think in part it goes back to the beginning of my story, which is like how much can I just trust this is all going to work out immediately? I can set my full fee, whether that's again, well especially for out of pocket, out of network folks or if they do go insurance or have a hybrid practice. But that question of I want to be able to jump all in and just trust it's going to work, but also I got to pay my bills. I have expenses and there's things that are going on. So I see a lot of that anxiety come up in terms of how do I make marketing myself as effective as possible? How do I do things as cheap as possible, but also not burn myself out by doing 50 free marketing techniques a week or when do I hire a VA to do something?

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(32:27):

So I think there's just a lot of overwhelm for people, especially the more I think it's a pro and a con, the more we see people being successful in private practice on social media where it should be easy, it's going to be easy, it's going to be great. And that's motivational. That's in part also why I went into private practice was seeing others. But I think too, there's also the comparison stuff that happens of like, but it's so easy for this people, why is it not easy for me? And so that's where it's either is it a marketing thing, is it a website thing, is it a... Search engine optimization is what I work with a lot of therapists on is like, we got to help people find your website, otherwise they can't. I think there's just a lot of people who feel anxious and fearful that it's not going to work no matter how much they want it to. And so it's conversation we're having around the financial aspect, the marketing aspect as well as just a lot of therapists own history of either childhood trauma or financial trauma comes up when we're talking about business of is it feeling rejected? Is it feeling scared? Is there scarcity mindset based on financial trauma growing up? So those are the biggest themes I'm talking about with people as well as imposter syndrome. Can I offer this? Can I charge this? Do I really know what I'm doing?

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Michael Fulwiler (33:40):

Yeah, that makes sense. It resonates with me. I offer a course called Beyond One-on-One Therapy with a psychologist, a friend of mine, and it's to help therapists to generate income outside of one-on-one therapy. And we spend a whole week just on limiting beliefs and mindset, and that's such a huge part, not just of expanding beyond one-on-one therapy, but just thinking about building a business in general. I think that's a very important piece there. I do want to talk about rates. I know this is a controversial topic. It's something that you talk openly about. I've seen you receive some negative feedback that you charge too much, and so I'm curious your perspective on whether or not it's ethical for therapists to be charging these premium high fees.

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Amanda Buduris (34:34):

Yes. I think ethics is a word. Ethical is a word that's used a little bit too much. I think it's been weaponized a little too much because absolutely. I think the degree to which therapy is accessible is a question of ethics, but a single therapist or even a handful or hundreds of therapists charging fees that are going to be inaccessible to some doesn't inherently make therapy inaccessible. There are so many different therapists who are still taking insurance, who are offering sliding scale. There are other ways that people can get connected with therapy that I don't personally see. Me and other therapists charging higher fees as we're failing the system, we're making therapy less accessible because of anything. I think the more people are making therapy financially accessible at the cost of their health leading to burnout, and that's leading to therapists taking on less clients, which makes therapy less accessible.

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(35:39):

I know not everyone can afford my fee. I know people are going to want to work with me, but choose not to because of my fee, and in that way I'm less accessible. But there's other ways that I still give back. There are still ways that I work on sliding scale. There are things I'm working on in my practice of how do I expand reach. I want to explore groups and workshops and things like that so that things are more financially accessible as well. So I think it's less a matter around the rate that you set, but what are you doing with the rate that you set? If you have a fee that helps you feel really good and opens up your ability to help others in other ways, then that's great.

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Michael Fulwiler (36:21):

Yeah, I've said this before on the show, the burden to make therapy accessible should not be on therapists. It does raise a question though of how do you make therapy more accessible? So for folks who can't afford to see a therapist who's charging premium high fees, I know it's a kind of higher level question, but I'm curious, how do you think about that? How do you think that we do make therapy more accessible?

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Amanda Buduris (36:50):

Yeah, I mean I think I've seen people do lots of different things within that, whether it is, I've worked with a lot of therapists who, because of the fee that they set, they offer more pro bono sessions because actually now they have more capacity to do that, whereas before it was kind of out of guilt, and I'm supposed to do this, but it led to the burnout. So to be able to make it kind of more intentional if that's within your goals and your time and your needs and wants that I'm going to offer pro bono, I'm going to offer very low fee. I've seen so many therapists. There's been the California wildfires or Florida shootings, whatever's going on, they have capacity to offer pro bono, what's it called? Limited time therapy work. Because again, they have that capacity and they're not worried about their finances taking a huge dip or being burnt out in the longterm. I've seen people do things like that. I've seen people volunteer more of their time, whether that's for a mental health organization or at different local organizations that need more mental health care, more people becoming more active on social media and just sharing more tips and strategies, our therapy, but are still reaching people in a way where people need it, which is sometimes the internet where there's a lot of toxic stuff out there. So I think there's just so much that people can do depending on what works for them, what they like.

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Michael Fulwiler (38:18):

What I'm hearing is you can charge premium high fees and still make therapy accessible. It's not, and either or. It's like both things can be true. And actually charging those higher fees enables you to offer pro bono or sliding scale because if every client that you're seeing, you're charging 20, $25 per session, unless you don't need the money, you're just going to have to see a lot more clients, which then leads to burnout, which then leads to not helping anyone. So that's not an ideal outcome either.

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Amanda Buduris (38:52):

I think that's the other side of the ethics coin that we miss when we're talking about just the rate being accessible. Is the therapist actually showing up and giving their best self? That is also in our ethical codes that we are taking care of ourselves and that we're taking breaks from therapy when we know we're not being effective. And that's not just grief or huge life circumstances, it's also your own mental health and your ability to show up for people who need you to be present with them.

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Michael Fulwiler (39:19):

I'm curious, when you post about charging premium fees or how you charge 350, $400 an hour and someone comments in a negative way, how does that feel?

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Amanda Buduris (39:31):

It feels crappy. I think it depends on how someone approaches it. It's rare that someone comes at it with curiosity of how do you think this impacts accessibility? Or how do you then make the therapy more accessible If you're charging these high rates, that feels like, okay, I can have a conversation there. But when people throw around the like, you're just being greedy. You are price gouging, that kind of stuff, it hurts to see. But I think that's also where I've taken that opportunity to bring that into my own therapy to realize other people's reactions. That's not about me, that's about them. And whatever it means for them to see high fees or to think about therapy becoming inaccessible, but that's not my own stuff. Oftentimes it's not people who need to see that for motivational reasons of how they want to raise their rates. They're showing up in my dms, they're not showing up in the common section because the common section is for trolls and keyboard orders. But yeah, it's not fun to see that kind of stuff. But if anything, I think it's honestly opened up more opportunities for my own healing around like, well, am I worth this or should I be doing this? Am I a bad person? And I bring that into my therapy and I'm like, no, I'm doing what I need to take care of myself. And that is the most important thing.

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Michael Fulwiler (40:54):

Advice I've heard when it comes to Instagram and social media content is that if you're not making someone mad, then your content is probably boring as long as you're not harming anyone or it's a listening and reaction. So it's like clearly you're onto something there and there's people who are going to resonate with it, and there's people who are going to react really negatively, but the people who are responding negatively and really upset by what you're saying, those probably aren't your potential clients for business coaching, for example. But people who see that and they're like, wow, this is what I want. Those are the people that you're trying to reach. Well, a huge disclaimer that we're not causing harm or we're not doing anything that's unethical just for the sake of stirring the pot or something like that.

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Amanda Buduris (41:46):

Exactly.

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Michael Fulwiler (41:47):

I want to chat about intensives as well. So this is a part of your business I'm really interested in. So when did you start to offer intensives and what is an intensive?

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Amanda Buduris (41:57):

Yes. So different people will have different definitions of it. I refer to an intensive as anything pretty much over the traditional 60 minute mark. And honestly, most of their kids, they're doing 45, 50 minutes. So intensives for me start at the 90 minute mark and anything above that. So two hours at a time, three hours at a time, six hours in one day, whatever that might be. And I started being interested in that when I think it was probably about that six month mark in my private practice where I was getting full. I was working with, again, more of my ideal people, and I was more and more realizing this traditional way of therapy is not working for these people, it's not working for me. I'm constantly feeling like we're up against the clock, we're running out of time off. We just had 15 more minutes, then we can do some good work.

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(42:49):

And I started posting around in some of these Facebook groups around how does anyone make this work? Is this even possible? And the biggest question that comes up is, well, not really if you are in network, because in network loves to prioritize the 45 to 50 minute mark, but those who were private pay would respond to my messages and say, here are some codes you can experiment with to help them be reimbursed more, or here's ways you can think about offering pricing and structuring it. But it was only two or three people I knew at that time who were even, they were calling them more extended sessions, not so much intensive sessions, but most people were like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Do it less than 60 minutes. Bring it up if you are having a hard time setting time boundaries, have your client commit to time boundaries with you.

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(43:37):

But that just didn't feel like for me, that was going to be the answer for complex trauma and the ways that shows up, and especially how it shows up between couples and couple sessions are just so hard to stick to less than an hour anyway, I was like, I want to do these extended sessions. I dunno what they look like, but I'm going to experiment and I'm going to learn. So I started offering 75 to 90 minute sessions and people were interested in that. And then I thought about doing full on intensive packages where it's like for a whole day, for a whole weekend, let's just dive into therapy. And so many people have been interested in that. So the more I put the word out there, the more it lives on my website, the more I direct traffic to that, the more people that reach out. So I've been doing them in the package model since March 2023 is when I booked my first two day package for them.

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Michael Fulwiler (44:29):

Could you explain what your packages are and what your pricing is?

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Amanda Buduris (44:35):

Yeah. The couples packages, I do either a one day or a two day. So either we do five hours in one day is my one day package or nine hours across two days is my two day package. And those range, when I initially put them up, I think the two day was 3000. And then right now my prices are 4,000 for the two day, and I think I do like 2,500 for the one day. So for couples, it feels a little easier to structure. Here's what we're going to do in a day, here's what we're going to do in two days. Compared to individuals, it's so customizable depending on what's going on, what they're wanting to work on. But traditionally, most of what I'm booking is a one day three hour intensive, and that's 1500. So some people will book two of those three hour appointments, three of those three hour appointments per weekend, and so 1500 times however much days that they're book.

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Michael Fulwiler (45:31):

So do you try to benchmark it around $500 an hour and then for a two day the hourly rate goes down a bit?

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Amanda Buduris (45:39):

Yeah, that feels a little, I don't know if easier or accessible, but at some point I'm also doing the math of, okay, this is maybe how much I want to make and I don't want to say it's $10,000 for two days of therapy that won't feel good to me. So I'm also trying to see what still feels good for me to charge what still feels like clients are coming in for it and feeling comfortable with that investment and then moving forward.

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Michael Fulwiler (46:06):

Yeah, I mean it sounds great If you can make $2,500 a day, it's like, well, I only need to work one day a week or two days a week and I can be making six figures in a year. There's also, I imagine though the emotional and energy component of it as well of doing therapy for three straight hours. If you were to get up and speak and give a workshop for three hours, you're probably just exhausted. So what has the impact been on your energy level offering intensives?

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Amanda Buduris (46:40):

Yeah, when I was first offering them, I just got so excited that so many people wanted to book them that ultimately what I was doing was still seeing my 15 to 20 clients per week, and then I would do an intensive on the weekend. I was like, well, that's the only time I can fit them in. And then I realized, okay, I might be making 15 grand, 20 grand, whatever this month, but I'm also working more than I want to be, and what's making me work more is how excited I am about the intensives. And so I had to make a very intentional decision to start transitioning some of my weekly clients out, whether that was saying, I'm starting to focus only on these intensives, if you want to transition into that model, we can. Or just overall checking in on how is our work going together?

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(47:28):

Because in week to week sessions, it's so easy to just stay in it just to stay in it because it's easy. But a lot of people were like, oh, no, actually I'm feeling pretty good with therapy. I don't need a deep dive. I'm not really interested in that. I just want someone to talk to week to week, which I started moving away from that kind of model. So lowered my caseload over time. Then it was 12 to 15 a week plus some intensives, then it went from eight to 10, and now I'm somewhere between, on any given week it might be three to six clients and then maybe an intensive during the week. There are plenty of people who will take off a Monday afternoon or a Friday morning, whatever that is, so you don't have to work on the weekends just to do an intensive.

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Michael Fulwiler (48:12):

I think what you're saying about feeling excited is super important that you just pay attention to how you're feeling about the type of clients that you're working with or the type of sessions that you're offering. And if there's certain sessions that are really draining and you feel yourself not looking forward to those sessions, that's probably a good signal of like, wow, if I keep doing that, I'm probably going to head towards burnout. So what are the types of clients or the types of things that I'm doing in my business that give me energy and feel exciting? And you have the choice, right, to decide as a business owner. Alright, well fortunately we're coming towards the end of our conversation here. I have a few rapid fire questions to wrap things up for you. Before I get that though, I want to make sure that we plug, you have a retreat that's coming up, so we're recording this in April. This will air sometime over the summer. So could you let folks know about the retreat that you're offering and also just the story behind it and how it came up?

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Amanda Buduris (49:17):

Yeah. So I've been attending my own, well, treats as a attendee for maybe like a year and a half at this point, just because I find them to be a really cool experience to number one, earn CEEs in a non-stuffy way, to not just go to the nearest Hampton Inn meeting room. And it's cool to just connect with people who are much more entrepreneurial people who are also looking for how do I better my business? How do I find more self-care, more balance, more just again, the things that excite me. And so the more I've been doing that, I'm like, I think it would be really cool to also offer that myself. I actually love planning events. I've planned big trips with my friends and family before. So it feels like a good combination of planning, organizing, taking care of therapists who need taking care of while also getting to travel while doing it. So yes, this October I'm running a retreat in Washington where it's going to be at a lodge and spa to both give some CEEs around ethics, around burnout and how creativity in your practice is actually going to fuel your passion for it and reduce burnout and teaching about intensives, teaching about this, how do we step outside of models of therapy that do not work for us, if that's alternative streams, if that's the intensives, whatever that is. So I'm really excited about it because it's going to be a really cool event.

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Michael Fulwiler (50:45):

Sounds amazing. So for listeners who are in the Pacific Northwest or who are looking for an excuse a tax deductible, this expense to take a trip out to Washington, highly, highly recommend that. Alright, let's get to these questions. I talked about this a little bit, but what is the hardest part about being a therapist on Instagram for you?

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Amanda Buduris (51:09):

The vulnerability. I think putting yourself out there and letting people see a side of you that therapists are taught you're not supposed to be you and be human. You're just a blank slate. So I think it's vulnerable to put yourself out there, but it's also very humanizing.

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Michael Fulwiler (51:22):

You help therapists with SEO. What's the biggest learning for you been when it comes to SEO?

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Amanda Buduris (51:30):

It's easier than a lot of people think that you can actually implement things very quickly and see the results of it for a much longer return on your time investment and you can do it for free.

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Michael Fulwiler (51:44):

Absolutely. If you could share one SEO best practice maybe that you think is the easiest to implement or maybe a mistake that you see the most therapists make, what would it be?

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Amanda Buduris (51:55):

I think one of the easiest things is literally even to put your location on the title of your pages. So many people just say trauma therapy, couples therapy. But even just to add in Seattle, Washington, people are going to search for a type of therapy where they're located, and so that's very Google friendly. If you have in your title of your page, couples there, Seattle, Washington, so many more people will find you.

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Michael Fulwiler (52:21):

Great advice. What's something that you've had to unlearn as a therapist in order to charge more?

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Amanda Buduris (52:27):

I think this idea of that my job is only to give and not to receive is a huge thing. So the more that I take care of myself, the better. Actually I show up for people that me overextending myself, isn't doing my clients any service, and so I take care of me, I show up better for them, they feel my connection more and they'd benefit more from our time together.

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Michael Fulwiler (52:54):

What's one thing that you think therapists need to hear right now?

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Amanda Buduris (52:58):

I think that their dreams aren't impossible. I think that it feels the current sociopolitical and economic environment that's going on right now, it's very easy for people to feel like I should just give up. I should just do the safe thing. I should just do whatever works. But it's not impossible to make what they want to happen happen. It might take a little bit of work, a little bit of strategy, a little bit of guidance, but they can do it and it is very possible.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:22):

I so appreciate that. I know a lot of folks are feeling nervous and discouraged. We were talking about Reddit earlier. I see posts on the therapist, I Reddit all the time about how I'm not getting private pay clients. Should I go back on insurance? I'm so worried. And so I think just one validating that is a thing a lot of people are feeling, feeling. And it's going to be okay too that there's a lot of people out there who are looking for a therapist.

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Amanda Buduris (53:51):

Absolutely.

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Michael Fulwiler (53:52):

And finally, what's one thing that you want therapists to take away from this conversation today?

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Amanda Buduris (53:58):

I think it comes back to the just self-care and almost this worthiness piece of you are worthy of taking care of yourself. You are worthy of charging the rate you need or want. That helps you live a good life, not just a good enough life, but a good life that you love. Ultimately, also, the point of having a job, if it helps you take care of you, take care of your family and therapy, as much as we enter into it as a passion, it is also a job. And so sometimes we have to treat it a little bit more like a business than I think a lot of us do.

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Michael Fulwiler (54:32):

Amanda, thank you so much. I said this before we hit record, but I also want to say it on the record. I'm so grateful for you and all of the time that you've given to us at Heard. It's been really fun hanging out with you and getting to know you over the last few years. For folks who are interested in learning more about you and your coaching services and intensives and your retreat that's coming up, where can they go to learn more?

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Amanda Buduris (54:59):

Yes, my website is probably going to be the one that has all the information, so that's just amandakbcoaching.com. My Instagram handle also has all that information, and that's @amandakbcoaching.

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Michael Fulwiler (55:11):

Amazing. We'll drop that in the description, in the show notes below, so definitely reach out to Amanda. Amanda, thank you so much.

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Amanda Buduris (55:18):

Yeah, thank you so much.

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Michael Fulwiler (55:20):

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School, brought to you by Heard, the financial management platform for therapists. To get the class notes for this week's episode, go to joinheard.com/podcast, and don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.

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