Stepping Away from Private Practice with Gary “Trey” Taylor

Gary Taylor (00:00:00):

I always tell my supervisees, my students, are you practicing in an ethical manner if you are burnt out? And no, it's not ethical at that point. You know what I'm saying? Because you not be able to meet the client where they're at and give them that sound non-biased opinion. You still are going through your own stuff and so you have to check that. You know what I'm saying? I believe by that, that is something I preach in that space. I just don't want to set them up for failure because I'm not present, you know what I'm saying?

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Michael Fulwiler (00:00:29):

This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. This week I'm joined by Gary Trey Taylor, a licensed clinical social worker, educator, consultant, and doctoral student focused on black men's mental health, culturally informed care and social justice advocacy, known as Retro GT on social media. He blends social work, business and culture to reach a broad engaged audience. In our conversation, we dive into Gary's journey from owning a car customization business to transitioning into mental health and private practice, and ultimately his decision to step away from private practice. We also discuss his passion for working with black men and the challenges of balancing personal and professional life. Gary shares insights on pricing, marketing and knowing when to prioritize. Here's my conversation with Gary. Enjoy. Gary Trey Taylor, welcome to the show,

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Gary Taylor (00:01:35):

Mike. Thank you, man. Appreciate that.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:01:37):

Catch my breath there. That was a lot.

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Gary Taylor (00:01:39):

Yeah, man, it's a lot. Sometimes I wonder how much, if that's the same person I'm thinking about, I'm going to wake up every morning doing all that stuff, but I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me on Heard Business School for sure.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:01:49):

Appreciate you making the time. When I first saw your handle on social media, I know you're a car guy, and so I thought GT was like a Mustang GT, not Gary Taylor. So is it both?

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Gary Taylor (00:02:01):

I am not a Ford guy. I'm a Chevy guy who formerly was a Honda guy and now is a BMW guy, but I've never been a Ford guy. So Retro GT, I think when I made that handle way back when I was like, I like to do things, take new older things and make them modernized, and then I said retro, and that always stuck, and the GT is for my initials. So yeah, that's about it.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:02:30):

Cars were a business that you were pursuing at one point, right? So before you became a mental health professional, social worker, didn’t you have a business wrapping cars?

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Gary Taylor (00:02:43):

Yeah. Yeah, man. So my first business was car customization. That's still kind of my passion when I get the time. If I can't do this, I used to work on my own cars every Friday or every other Friday I'm washing or cleaning my car. I used to do all the modifications, like the bright blue HID lights, the LED lights and the cars, car system, car audio. A lot of folks don't do car audio no more. Me and my guys used to do our own car audio, so it was our own Best Buy. We did our own tint, tint windows, you name it. We pretty much done it all and we did some mechanical stuff as well, but during that time it was called Redline Society Customs, working in my mom's garage, and we got into this Plasty dip. It was an alternative for paint, it was a rubberized material, so you could change the color of your car with this rubberized material and then once you get done with it, you could just peel it off. And so it came with all different colors and things like that. And so we were getting good at that and was offering that service for a while. And that was during grad school. I was in grad school working on my master's degree and doing that on the side as well, but then that kind of dissolved. Everybody kind of went their separate ways and so we moved from that, but that grew out of my hobby and passion of working on cars and stuff.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:03:58):

Yeah. Something I've heard you talk about is how having that business helped you when you launched your private practice, and I want to come back to that and some of those marketing lessons. Before we even get into that, would love to start with your journey as a social worker. I'm curious, when did you start to think about social work and therapy as a potential career? When did that first become an option for you?

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Gary Taylor (00:04:26):

So those two lanes in and of itself are separate, right? I've always told everybody that I did not want to be a therapist, did not want to be on a private practice. I didn't want to do any of those things. So I guess becoming a social worker, I was in VCU, I was working on my psychology degree, knew I needed to do something in the master's level and didn't want to do counseling or clinical psychology. Wanted to do a little bit more freedom of the work that I do, stumbling in social work one-on-one class. And that's how I got introduced to social work. I didn't know anybody that was a social worker at the time. And then I had one of my close family friends who's actually my director now at Virginia State. She was one of the only social workers, or at least somebody, a social work student that I knew of.

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(00:05:14):

And just talking with Fred Journey and Path, as I matriculated into George Mason and became a social work student, I didn't know what career path was going to look like. I just know I didn't want to do clinical based work. At first, I wanted to do macro policy based work. It's kind of ironic, I'm kind of getting into that now later in my career. But I've always wanted to do that initially. I mean even my concentration is in social policy and advocacy, but so I was like, I don't know what careers are out there. I don't know what lanes are out there, but the career path that I want to do, talked to my parents and told 'em everything. I wanted to go in that route. Initially I was a business major, I was a business major. I wanted to own my own business. I just wanted to do that.

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(00:05:56):

But I realized I was like, I didn't need the business degree to own my own business. I just needed to know the principles. And so when I switched my majors to psychology and then went to psychology, and then I did social work. So when I got into the social work profession, that is when I was like, alright, cool. We going to do this. We're going to move here. This is the opportunities. And then a lot of folks were telling me, well, you could get your license and be a therapist. And I was like, I don't want to get my license. I don't want to deal with that. But my job at the time as a crisis therapist, you had to be pre-licensed to sit for supervision in order to continue to have your job unless you had to find a new job. So I just said, all right, well, I'm just get the hours and see what happened.

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(00:06:35):

And some of my colleagues were like, at least, if you get it, you got it. You can do stuff. And I think maybe around 2019, 2018, when I started to take the license thing seriously, and I started seeing the opportunities that were out there to do therapy and I could make a difference, that is where I started thinking about, okay, maybe I can do this private practice thing. There is a need for me as black male therapists. There's a need for more therapists in general, and I do want to work with black men, men, so let's see what happens. And that's kind of where it was birthed at, but it was late. It was late. When my students come in there, it's like, I don't want to do private practice. I like, I relate. I understand.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:07:15):

Yeah, no, I'm glad that you went there. I'm curious, as a black man, how is that perceived by your friends when you told them, oh, I'm interested in this social work thing or becoming a therapist because most men are pursuing careers in business and finance and tech. And I'm curious, how was that? What was the response when you went down that path? Were people supportive or surprised by it or?

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Gary Taylor (00:07:40):

No, I don't think a lot of people were surprised because they knew I liked to help people in general. I think at that time when I was pursuing a social work degree, I was doing some community based work. That's how I kind of got started on the uphold side was my community based work. And I was working inpatient for a while, inpatient psychiatric after my undergrad degree and I was working, so I was already starting a conversation about mental health with my friends in that space. And they was already used to me talking, you got to take care of your mental health, you got to do this. So when I moved into the space of social work, they didn't know all about it, but I taught them about it. And then when I moved into the space of therapists, it was kind of a no-brainer because I had already been pushing a lot around mental health, mental health in the black community, mental health, us as black men. So it was like a seamless fit. We'd been talking about it way before I even got the degree and became a therapist.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:08:36):

That makes sense. And when you say that you initially didn't want to do therapy, what about it to you wasn't appealing?

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Gary Taylor (00:08:46):

I didn't think I was good at it. I was taking the classes and I just didn't think that I would be a good therapist and I didn't understand it to the point of working with folks. I think there was a little bit of fear there as well, of taking somebody's life journey and diagnosing them and helping them with their inner darker secrets and stuff like that. I really wasn't comfortable with that. I had a professor that told me though, he was like, yo, he called him the Oracle. He was an agile professor and he had his own private practice. He was like, we would throw questions, random questions at him in class, like yo, just off the wall type stuff. And he had an answer for every single one. So we started calling him the Oracle man, but he was one of the first ones who spoke life to me, I think around saying, you would be a great therapist.

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(00:09:32):

You know that, so I hope you'll go the clinical route. I was like, man, nah man, I ain't doing that stuff. You know what I'm saying? And then I think too, I really think working inpatient allowed me to see some of the inequities from the mental health side. And so I was so focused on, all right, there's a lot of folks in here that don't understand mental health, the process, there's a lot of stuff going on around psychiatric holds and things like that. So I was like, I want to get to that level to help in that space and I want to do more of the psychoeducation and policy realm, more access to care, more access to understanding education around mental health. How did that affect people, especially black folks in those situations. So I think that was one of the reasons I was already exposed to it before I even went into my grad program, I was already two years in, about two years into psychiatric mental health. And so I had already seen a lot coming in and I did a little TDT therapeutic day treatment, but I think it was just like I wanted to do on the other side of the policy side and I wanted to affect change in that level, which still kind of circled back today because the work that I want to do in my doc program is looking at higher policy level type stuff. But it was just fear and I just didn't think I was going to be good at it.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:10:48):

Thanks for sharing that. You've also been open about your own struggles and challenges with your mental health. Was that going on at that time or was that something that happened later?

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Gary Taylor (00:11:02):

Oh man. I mean, probably.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:11:05):

Or has there always been?

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Gary Taylor (00:11:07):

Always been there at some point, man, some of the stuff as you get older, you get wiser, but also you just, once you do the work and the healing work, you can kind of sit back and pinpoint like, oh, you probably should have started therapy there or probably should have got something up there buddy, or you was dealing with this that at that time. So I really would say that the depression journey dealing with depression and anxiety and those symptoms that started the first year of undergrad, my first year of college because that was going through a lot of stuff, transition and then also leaving the house and then my peoples were going back and forth and then that lasted through a lot of undergrad and then moving into grad school. And then as I got older and I went to therapy, I do think that all therapists should attend therapy at some point before they get into this work.

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(00:11:59):

I was like, oh snap. You were working through your depressive symptoms. It's funny because I took some of that energy that I had and they're like, we going to just put it into the degree, we're going to put it into the work and we just going to build, build, build. But again, that's not healthy in the same manner, but that's what I was dealing with. So I've been dealing with that on and off if I want to be truthful with myself on and off, where I could identify it. It was probably the first year of undergraduate, kind of going to second year, but it had probably been trickling around in high school, just ain't never putting no names to it.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:12:34):

And what was that experience like for you looking for a therapist for the first time? Did you find someone initially that you connected with and liked or did it take a few therapists before you found one that was a good fit?

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Gary Taylor (00:12:49):

Nah, man, luckily, man, I was able to find, the first one I looked for, we was a match black guy, similar in nature, you know what I'm saying? Same alma mater, things like that in the area and just had the, the same values I did. I didn't know what to expect, but I looked at 'em and I said, oh, this might be the first guy. So I'm privileged in that. I know that's not everybody's experience, but at the same time I'm also a therapist too, so I knew what certain things to look for. Certain things will pop up from us and we was like, okay, I like that. Don't like that.

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(00:13:19):

I could check it easier versus somebody else that maybe is not in the field. I mean in the profession mean once I got with him, man, he was very helpful. I did therapy with him for about three years, three and a half years and really worked through some stuff that I had suppressed and really hadn't dealt with and worked through a lot of stuff that I thought that I was over with, but it still was popping up. And so I do know that again, it doesn't happen like that all the time. Sometimes you're going find a therapist, it's going to take a couple therapists to find them, multiple therapists to find, again, because I'm in the profession, I have that skillset, it's a little bit easier for me to navigate. And again, that's not all the same way, always the same for some therapists either. They might still struggle finding somebody else to get them there. Is that because not all therapists work with therapists either. So it's just like you got to find that one who worked with therapists that's comfortable doing that too because we can be our own worst enemy sometimes we can be tough and stubborn. So you got to ask somebody and call you out with it.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:14:22):

And I think it can be helpful too for therapists to think about how they market themselves and their practice from the lens of when I look for a therapist, what do I look for when I look at a therapist's website or Psychology Today profile, what resonates with me? And it sounds like the fact that the therapist that you saw that he was a black man, that's something that you were looking for or was important to you that he worked with therapists that maybe there's some other specializations that he had versus if you looked at his website and always maybe as a generalist or this doesn't really speak to me or I don't know if he can really address what I want to work on and definitely want to talk about marketing more, but I just want to make that point here. I think that in the shoes of a therapy seeker in terms of what resonates you when you're looking for a therapist.

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Gary Taylor (00:15:14):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's kind of how I marketed flipping my marketing for my stuff as well. What was I seeking and what I think a client would potentially seeking in that space. And like I said, certain interventions of course, but then also if I am a therapist or a professional or if I'm a healthcare professional or something like that, I need somebody to specialize in that. And then also things that I need to work on. Now if somebody is like, I don't know what I want to work on, I don't know what I'm looking for, then it's always easy to do that interest call and see what they're talking about. To help clarify for you too, in that space, yeah,

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Michael Fulwiler (00:15:53):

We're all consumers, whether it's social media or buying products or services. And something that I do is I look at other industries as well for inspiration. So if I'm thinking about marketing for Heard, I'm looking at companies that are in totally different industries, but oh, I like how they said this or I like this campaign or this messaging really resonates with me. How can I think about applying that to our business so we don't have to reinvent the wheel? So think about as a consumer, what kind of content do you consume for example, and can you apply that to your own business?

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Gary Taylor (00:16:30):

That's something I thought about when we started the early conversation about the car business. I took elements of that, of how we market ourselves in that space. And one of the ways we marketed ourselves was that we also marketed our cars. And so when people would see our cars, they would say, okay, who did this? And we say it's us. And so our cars was one of those things that the word of mouth is big, but then the word of mouth is also big when they know that you are also genuine in the work that you do and also know what you do in that space. And so your own product, your own development, your own personal journey, your own things that you can showcase is something that will move forward for you versus you just, okay, I need to make sure it looks like this.

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(00:17:14):

Make sure it looks like that. And you think about it and like you said, I glad you brought that up. If you look at other ways, the other businesses meant my marketing schemes, the things that we interact with on a daily basis, we talked about this, it appeals to certain things, colors, the styles, all of those approaches. It appeals to certain things within us. And so we have to take that to consideration as therapists and professionals as when we market our product and our services that okay, if it's too jumbled up or if it's a bunch of colors are clashing together, it might turn the client off, but as soon as they interact with it, it's as simple and it actually speaks to them. It speaks to your ideal client, then it's more likely to get your audio client in that space. But again, even going back with the car situation, that's a niche person. Every person is not going to want to wrap their car. But if you're in those spaces and then you market it, some people are going to reach out because that's the ideal client, the person that's going to spend that money to wrap that car and then they're going to come down to, but it it's a niche population. You got to know your market too. Yeah. Something

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Michael Fulwiler (00:18:20):

Else this brings up for me is that if you're creating content for social media, if you're writing blog posts and articles, if you're sending email newsletters, if you're putting out a podcast like this and you're bored by your content, then people are also going to be bored by your content. And so when you're putting stuff out, make sure it's something that's exciting for you that you think is really valuable and other people are going to find it valuable. But if you're just putting stuff out to put it out and you're not really that excited about it or you don't find it all that interesting, you're kind of just going through the motions, then it's not going to resonate, right? People are going to receive it in that way as well.

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Gary Taylor (00:18:59):

Yeah, it's got to be intentional. Even though sometimes as a content creator we do put out stuff and it doesn't feel like it's interesting at all and then it's the most successful post ever. Didn't think that one was going to resonate, but it did. You know what I'm saying? So if you have an intention behind your post, then put it out regardless if you think it's interesting or not. But then if you're just doing it just to be doing it though, going through the motions and yeah, I would say maybe let's reevaluate what we're doing in this space. You know what I'm saying? And who's the audience and what are we doing it for? You know what I'm saying? Because social media side, the content creative side is a whole different world now than what it once was. You know what I'm saying? Yeah,

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Michael Fulwiler (00:19:39):

Definitely. So coming back to private practice, you go to graduate school and you're actually not really that interested in doing clinical work, becoming a therapist. So what was that journey like for you coming out of grad school and going into private practice? Did you start your private practice right away or when did that start for you?

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Gary Taylor (00:20:03):

Graduated in 2015, so I didn't start my private practice until 2019 going into 2020, right into the heart of the pandemic, just doing wild business stuff that if you was a business professional you would do. Yeah. So it took me a while to pass my licensure exam. I've talked about that before. It took me three times to pass and really it took me a few years to get all my hours. I think I graduated 15, I got my job in 15 and I had to fight to get my hours of supervision. Not so much the clinical hours, but mostly the supervision hours. That probably put me a little bit behind because I was coming up on that third, fourth year of supervision. But I did get it. And then around 18, 19, that's when I started flirting with the idea of private practice. I did a men's group called the Goodfellas Project.

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(00:20:56):

That's when I started my project up. And when I did that and did that group, I was like, oh, well I can take this. And that was November, 2019 before the pandemic hit and I was like, you know what? I can take this and make this individualized and jumped to 2020, did it for three months until the whole world shut down. And that's when I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to go ahead. And I think I started it. I started the private practice around that time doing part-time and going into it. And then I went full-time with it 2021 of the summer of 2021. Yes, on Juneteenth, that was when I jumped out and did full-time private practice. So it was a part-time self-pay start off journey to continuing on with that, building that up and then growing as we went with that and then going into full-time private practice the following year after that.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:21:52):

When you say that getting those supervision hours was a challenge, was that just finding a supervisor or what was difficult about that?

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Gary Taylor (00:22:01):

No, that was because in my organization at the time, my supervisor was also our clinical supervisor and it was like eight, nine of us. It was a lot of us. So she was trying to do individual for all of us and then she left and well, she was doing group, but you only get 50 hours a group for us social workers, so you got to get 50 hours or more of individual. And then she left, got a new position and she took some of the ones that were closer to finishing while she's transitioning. We found another supervisor within the agency started there and was fighting for that, but was trying to get two hours a week, couldn't do that, only getting one hour a week. And so it was just this transition and balance of trying to keep consistent with the hours while also still managing the work. We was doing crisis therapy, so it was like we'd be in the middle of supervision and a crisis call coming, you know what I'm saying to them, we got to go, you know what I'm saying? And then when I transitioned out and went to another job, I found somebody private, but I was like 15, 20 hours left and that was pretty smooth. And when you say you started

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Michael Fulwiler (00:23:06):

The private practice on the side, were you able to take clients with you from your job or how were you able to get those kind of initial clients for your private practice?

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Gary Taylor (00:23:17):

So my job that I had at the time, well prior to that, before I left in crisis, I didn't have a caseload. So we didn't have caseloads in crisis, we just did an assessment, make the recommendation, closed out the case at the end of the day whenever they found hospitalization. So I didn't have a caseload at the time. And so moving to the new job during that period, I didn't have a caseload either. I was just a care coordinator popping in with clients that needed resources. So I had kind of took that model of trying to figure out, okay, well alright, how do I market myself? How do I move myself? And I was talking to some of my other colleagues who had already started their private practice and getting that ball rolling and then like, okay, we're going to do it this way, we're going to do it that way. And just took the leap of faith and added some folks around that time. Put myself out there on Psychology Today. That's the big one. I started with, set up my website, I'm saying to have the links to go into the electronic health record with Simple practice and that's how I started. And then I think as soon as I popped and put myself out there, I got a few clients within a week or two and that's where I started with.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:24:28):

That's great. And then how were you thinking about your ideal client or your niche at the time when you first started? Or were you just kind of open to working with whoever reached out?

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Gary Taylor (00:24:39):

Yeah, so I was putting myself, I market like that. I really wanted to work with black men and I was trying to figure out, okay, well how do I make this look like this market that in a sense where it doesn't feel like, oh, nobody else can come. And it's like, no, you could come, but I do want to specifically work with black men. And I really just took what I did in Goodfellas and scaled it down to an individual mindset because I marketed Goodfellas for just black men. Black men showed up, 20, 25 folks showed up. We had about probably balancing between eight to 10, eight to 12 for those three months that we had in person. So I just took that same practice and just individualized it and market that way and that's how folks started showing up and that became my ideal client. I did get other clients, I got other race and ethnicities, I got black women as well. And it happened. Then I kept refining and refining it to a point where I got comfortable with what the marketing looked like on Psychology today, what it looked like on my website, and then any other directors like clinicians of color, stuff like that so that they knew that this is what I specialize in, this is who I want to work with, but I'm also open to working everybody else.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:25:53):

How did you think about pricing and setting your rates initially? You mentioned that you were private pay at the time, so not taking insurance,

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Gary Taylor (00:26:03):

Man, that pricing thing I struggled with for, I could still vividly losing sleep over that, trying to figure out a pay scale that made sense. I did not want to take insurance initially and I was going to try to see if I could build up a cash pay private practice, but when the time came for me to say, you know what, I'm going to go ahead and leave nine to five and jump into this world of private practice, I was like, I have to probably take insurance to sustain. It's just kind of impossible. I did have guys who started with me private pay, I started out a hundred dollars a session. I thought that was fair between, and I did kind of a market analysis between, I'm in the middle of Central Virginia and so I was like, all right, what Northern Virginia, Northern Virginia is always going to be more expensive because it's Northern Virginia, it's just Nova, right?

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(00:26:54):

It is always going to be more expensive. Then Richmond and 7 5 7, which is down close to Virginia Beach area. So I was just kind of doing a market analysis of seeing going on individuals, psychology today profiles, alright, how much they charging for private practice, I want to say charging for this, how much they're charging for that, seeing the rates. And I said, alright, well I'm, I'm already still working so I'm not really strapped for cash like that, but let's go ahead and I'll do a hundred. I think a hundred is good, right? Self pay. So I had guys who paid the a hundred who stayed with me the whole entire time and paid the rates even when I increased it. So I do think it's a model that can be replicated if you and the clients are out there, if you are doing a good work with that.

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(00:27:42):

But I was still under price. That was still under price even when I did the, so I think the next year, not that 20 year, but the 2021 I raised it, or even 20 22, 1 of the years I raised it up to one 50 for intake and 1 35 for the actual not 60 minute session. And I raised it and guys were fine. They went with it, you know what I'm saying? I raised it slow in increments each year and they were fine with that, you know what I'm saying? Some couldn't afford it or some maybe we switched over to insurance. Now that was an issue. That was one thing. But I had already started adding on three insurance payers too. By the time I jumped out the window, I always say jumped out the window, my private practice time, I jumped out the window with it.

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(00:28:29):

I had already had my payers involved, which was Anthem and Cigna UnitedHealthcare. So if they wanted to, I was like, you can, because my whole thing about it, Mike, was this is, I still wrestle with it today. Who am I to say that this person cannot use their insurance benefits to receive a service that they have never had access to before? And I get the piece of fighting with insurance companies. I do, I do, I do and reimbursement rates, but I looked at it from a kind of different perspective like okay, because the thing about it, if we're working with black men in black community, our finances is one of our big, big issues that we deal with. And so I want to make it affordable, but I also want to make a profit. I need to sustain business. But at the same time, if you are paying for insurance each and every month and you have it, who am I to say, no, you can't use it here.

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(00:29:23):

You know what I'm saying? Because of what I got going on, it goes into that moral kind of thing with me and I'll just take the L know I'm saying on if I get the reimbursement rates, I'll just take the L because I know that at least I added the service to make sure that you got it versus paying out pocket folks might not be able to pay that. So yeah, I had a big, big challenge with, and I still on the side of therapists and clinicians around insurance payers, I will always be, we need to be more reimbursement rates, higher reimbursement rates, we got to eliminate those clawbacks type things like that. But it was tough. I was working with a population that usually has not been the therapy.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:29:56):

The counter argument that I've heard is that if you operate a cash pay practice out of network, it allows you to have more flexibility in your pricing. So you can charge premium rates to clients who can afford to pay those rates. And then you can charge, or you can have a sliding scale where maybe you're charging 1 50, 1 75 for your typical session, but you have some spots on your caseload for lower income folks who it's 25, $50. But even that for some people who are struggling to just put food on the table on their paycheck to paycheck, they can't afford to be paying $50 or $25 a session. So if they do have that insurance, they can pay their copay. I definitely can see that perspective

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Gary Taylor (00:30:42):

And see, I didn't do sliding scale. I didn't agree with it at the time when it was like, okay, why would I charge this person premium? And then my other client that comes in, they pay less. And then my other client like, well, if they find out, I'm not saying they found out now, but they just say clients talk, I'm saying, but if they find out like, oh, how much you paying? Oh, what you paying 1 75 and I'm paying you paying 25 or 50, then it becomes an issue. I thought about that. You know what I'm saying? I thought about what would the clients think if they know they're not paying the same rates across the board and I'm working with black men, so black men about their money and so we got to be clear with that, right? You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that can't be done and they wouldn't be able to do it.

‍

(00:31:24):

They might be able to do it, but I just wanted to make it fair across the board for guys. And if I saw issues pop up, I try to make it a blanket thing for the whole practice so that way I don't have to get into a back and forth about, oh well you charging this person, listen, you're charging this person. It's a sliding scale. That's what it is for. But I just didn't want to get into that. I thought that would make it more, we already dealing with some guys that is already struggling trying to get in here and already got fear and stigma around it. Let's not overcomplicate the finance side because if we overcomplicate the finance side, they're probably going to be less likely not coming in here. I tried to keep it as simplifi as possible and in our increased rates it was a minimum thing and then we just kept moving from there. I just wanted to keep it simple. I knew how black men, I knew how they are about their money. I know how I am about my money. I'm saying,

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Michael Fulwiler (00:32:16):

Yeah, raising rates is an interesting one. We put out a financial state of private practice report every year. This is the third year that we've done it. And one of the questions we always ask is, did you raise your rates in the last year and are you planning to raise your rates next year? And therapists always say they're going to raise their rates more than they actually do. It can be like 50 to 60% of therapists say yes, next year I'm going to raise my rates. When we ask them, did you raise your rates? It's around 30%.

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(00:32:47):

Being a therapist is about helping people, not crunching numbers, but when you're running your own practice, managing finances can feel like a full-time job when you never trained for. That's where Heard comes in. Heard is the financial management platform built just for therapists. No more cobbling together spreadsheets, DIY software or expensive accountants with Heard, you get bookkeeping, tax support and financial insights all in one easy to use platform. Heard was started by an accountant and a software engineer who understand the challenges you face as a business owner. Our mission to make it incredibly easy for therapists to manage their practice as a business, build wealth and stay focused on what matters most. Their clients join thousands of therapists who trust Heard with their finances. Schedule a free consultation today at join her.com/consult. I'm curious your take on that, why do you think therapists struggle to raise

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Gary Taylor (00:33:50):

Their fees? I think it's the morals and ethics man. I think it's the morals and ethics, especially if you are aware of the financial insecurity and you understand how that affects your clients. Again, it's like who am I? Who am I to raise this rate for this service that I'm doing that this person needs? And then it's the whole conversation of therapy should be affordable, it shouldn't be this much. But then it's like, okay, well we've done tons of years of schooling. The thing about private practice is that I really didn't understand until I was in it and now I do. Prior practice is very expensive. It's an expensive business to maintain in that space when you start talking about overhead and then specialized skills and keeping the lights on. So I think that's why a lot of therapists struggle with that. It is a moral ethics type thing.

‍

(00:34:41):

Am I charging too much? And I think sometimes it is about how much we think how much value we have of ourselves, but I don't think that's the bulk of the thought pattern. I think it's just really just the inner struggle, personal and professional around charging clients a certain premium rate and if they can afford it, especially who's your ideal client? Now I know folks get into the old, the CEO clients or certain clientele that can't afford it and they will pay the rates. I'm not saying people won't pay the rates, but that clash of morality and values, it comes into play in those moments. And I'll be honest, when I did raise my rates, that was my final price raise. I went up to one 50 and the 1 35 per session, that was my final one. And even that 1 35 per session for 60 minutes and then one 50 per intake, that was still under all the price ranges between Nova and Richmond and things like that still under. And to me I was like, I'm comfortable with that also. I think that's how much I would pay for therapy services. I wouldn't pay more than that. I wouldn't. So I looked at it like that way, how much would I pay for service? How much would I pay for this service? I know I'm this person, I know I got this skillset. I know I think I'm pretty decent at therapy. How much would you pay out of pocket? I'm not paying more than 150.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:36:03):

That's

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Gary Taylor (00:36:03):

Me.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:36:04):

Yeah, that's a great point. Going back to the conversation we were having earlier, right? About how we're all consumers and so when you're looking for therapists, what do you look for? And from a price perspective, what would you pay for therapy? And that's not to say that people wouldn't pay more than you because there are people out there who would. I think there's also some scarcity mindset here of if I raise my fees, I'm going to lose my clients and then I'm not going to be able to get new clients. And I think that can hold some people back as well. I think therapists are generally surprised when they do raise their fees that clients don't push back. And if you do have a client who can't afford that higher rate, then maybe you just keep them at the same rate. I think that's the benefit of private practice raise. You have that flexibility, but to your point, if you feel like everyone should be paying the same, then that's just the decision that you need to make as the business owner.

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Gary Taylor (00:36:59):

And that's a lot of stuff that they don't teach us in school. This is like all business, but it's not business one-on-one either. It is business from a mental health private practice lens that is different than your regular traditional business one-on-ones class. You know what I'm saying? Because from business one-on-one class, you're talking about, I'm saying you have your supply and demand, you got your product and your service that you offer. You got your overhead things, you got your bottom line that you want to meet. That could be the foundational principles in these spaces. But then you get into the private practice's a lot more nuanced in that situation. And so you got to ask yourself the race that you are charging to, would you pay it? If you wouldn't pay it, then why are you charging that person that, you know what I'm saying in that situation And then it gets into it is nuanced. It's very nuanced. I'm just saying for what I paid, I'm just saying for what I paid, take that and clip that one up for sure.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:37:55):

Sure, yeah, we'll put that out on Instagram. So you build this practice, you have a lot of success, you get clients and then you make the decision actually to step away from private practice. So can you talk about that experience and what led that decision to actually move away from private practice?

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Gary Taylor (00:38:14):

I was coming off of a situation where my second child was born. My son was born 2022 in May. Took some time away from the practice, had slowed a lot of stuff down. And while I had him and then moved into that space, I just did not recover to get back to the fully level that I was at in the private practice. So I was probably doing anywhere between 15 to 18 a week at the time I had let my office go because I had an office, but pandemic was just so uncertain, just wasn't working for me no more. You moved to virtual and I could not get back to that level or higher. I thought about expanding, thought about bringing some folks on and scaling up, but talking to one of my mentors, OGs about this to me, he was like, you can scale up.

‍

(00:39:10):

He has a private practice. He's been in private practice 20 something years, major proper practice. He was like, you can do it, but the thing about it's you're still going to have to put in just as much energy to train, make sure everybody's squared away. And I was like, do I have that energy and capacity to do that? And I just did not have the energy capacity. I went back and forth, I mean for months, trying to figure out if I'm going to scale this thing. So much so that I actually, I started the job in teaching while still doing private practice. So when I got the job in teaching in 2023, I was still in private practice on the side trying to work through that, trying to figure out what I was going to do, what I was going to keep it or was I going to transition it.

‍

(00:39:46):

And I got to the point where I just had to shut it down. The reason I did that, like I said, because I had my second child and I needed some of the time in the evenings back because we was balancing a new child, our lifestyle has shifted a little bit. I needed something more stabilized and a little bit more flexible. A lot of my therapy sessions were in the evening, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I had got a nice little schedule down where it's like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Mondays or admin or check-in time. But I had got it down to maybe one or two on Mondays, Tuesday evenings, Wednesday evening, Thursday evenings. But it started to become a strain too because you're talking about doing prior practice right after work. My wife is a teacher, she get home, she's trying to make sure the house is straight, I'm doing sessions and then I'm taking over baby duty at the same time after the sessions or at least helping an assistant in that space.

‍

(00:40:41):

And I was staying up with him most of the night. And then I go to sleep during the day, pop up, start sessions again during the day in the evenings. And it became a situation where it's like I'm not practicing what I'm preaching, what I'm telling my clients. It had nothing to do with my clients. My clients were amazing. But when your clients start looking at the screen, it's like, oh my God, you look exhausted. You know what I'm saying? It becomes an issue. And so I just needed to stabilize again. And I was dealing with private practice, the income fluctuation, trying to manage the overhead taxes just because I went again, jumped out the window head first and just really, really needed some stabilization again. And that's when teacher came up and I didn't think I could teach because I thought I needed a doctorate, but my director, she was like, nah, you come in and teach and then we get you squared away and you can do that, which one you want to do? And I said, shoot, I'll do full-time and I'll figure out where the private practice goes from there. So that's how it started, man. It had nothing to do with my clients. My clients were amazing, but I think I was a little bit burnt out, tired while also probably sleep deprived at the same time. And I needed a stabilization to shift back and get myself back together.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:41:51):

I mean, you can have the best business plan for your practice, but life happens. You have to be flexible and you have to listen to your body and all of those things. I'm curious, what was that like transitioning those clients out? Did you refer them out or just terminate treatment with them or how those clients run their course? What was that like ending those relationships?

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Gary Taylor (00:42:18):

It was tough, man. Tough doing that. I had worked with a lot of these guys for about the last two, three years. We used to develop a great relationship therapeutic alliance in that space. And they had did some work, man, they did some work and they was really working to better themselves. So it was tough, man to transition them boys out, those guys out. I referred most of them out. Some were able to find the old therapist, some took a break because some of us, we was doing what, weekly or biweekly? So they was like, I'm going to take a break chill and then I'm going to see how I feel after the fact. So some took a break, I gave 'em resources to some guys. By this time there was a lot more black male therapists, you know what I'm saying? Popping up. And I was like, okay, I'm seeing the trend.

‍

(00:43:00):

So I was able to refer out a lot to different private practices. And that was contingent. A lot of them was at a space of, they was at a good space of maintenance anyway, so it was good that they were able to transition and figure out what they wanted to do or they were in the space of looking at, alright, let's go look at some deeper stuff. And so I was like, all right, well if you want to do some deeper stuff, this is a person right here, you're going to probably look at things like that. A few that probably would need more wasn't quite in maintenance just yet. Those they possibly have. Either they stopped coming or just not showing the therapy as much. So I just gave 'em some resource, let them know what's going on, and then gave 'em a list of folks to reach out to.

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(00:43:44):

Tried to close that chapter as much as possible. I gave 'em like a three month notice though to process. I told 'em in June July that I was shutting down and then gave the end of September and gave 'em all September to grieve and process. I'm saying making sure in transition was. So yeah, when I made the decision in the spring, I said, okay, I'm going to make that announcement in the summer and then be going to just work this thing through the next three months. But it was tough, man. I really didn't know how tough it was going to be actually.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:44:19):

I can understand that. I think if you've built relationships with these people, you feel like they depend on you, you don't want to abandon them, all of those things, and you're running a business too. And so I think going back to that kind of ethical dilemma around pricing, I think it's the same thing here too of what's best for me is to step away to be with my kids and be more present. And it's probably not in service of my clients to continue to work with them if I'm burnt out and I'm not. So it's actually what's best for them would be to step away. And you feel kind of a duty, I'm sure, in some capacity to help these people too. And so that's got to be a challenge.

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Gary Taylor (00:45:01):

Yeah, I mean, I always tell my supervisor, these my students, are you practicing in an ethical manner if you are burnt out? And no, it's not ethical at that point. You know what I'm saying? Because you not be able to meet the client where they're at and give them that sound non-biased opinion. You still are going through your own stuff, and so you have to check that. You know what I'm saying? So I believe by that. That's something I preach in that space. I just don't want set them up for failure. I'm not present, you know what I'm saying in that space. So it was tough. You got to balance that. And that's why I say practice is a different business model. It's a different business model that I think needs more education around it for sure.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:45:44):

I can always scale up and down too. You can step away. It's going to be there. If you want to come back, you can decide, I want to go back into private practice and see five clients, so maybe there's one day a week I want to do clinical work. And so there's always that opportunity. It's not going anywhere either. And so just give yourself permission to make that decision to step away. If you're listening to this and you're feeling like you're resonating, and man, I'm really feeling burnt out, I'm not really showing up for my clients. Okay, take a break to step away.

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Gary Taylor (00:46:18):

Yeah, absolutely it is. You always can come back. You always can revamp. If I can think, the good thing I talk about one of my colleagues is that I can rebuild it again and now know what to expect. I know how I would rebuild it if I wanted to get back into it. I flirt with doing it again, but just not right now. But I do flirt with trying to do it. I know I can just knock it out really easy. I know what the things to look for, know what to charge and know how it was, set it up. But if you not, like I said, it's okay to step away, man. It's hard work. It's not easy work. It's not easy work by any means. And I think you do have to have a passion for it at some point that's going to probably sustain you more than just the skillset and the professionalism of it. It is just like you got to have a passion for working with people and doing private practice because it can be very tough, but it is good work. It's fulfilling, but it is challenging. So you need to step away. Step away. And if you need to, it ain't going anywhere. I mean, you're going to be in demand for quite some time at this point, quite some time.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:47:21):

Yeah, there's definitely job security given everything going on in the world. So you're teaching as an assistant professor and you're in school, you're doing supervision work, you're also doing consulting work as well through the Brothers in Social Work collective. Could you talk about how that started and the work that you do with social work

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Gary Taylor (00:47:42):

Programs? What happened was I was trying to diversify the income, you know what I'm saying? Trying to diversify the income and the skillset and really tap in with some of the DEI initiatives, and that's where the speaking started. I always wanted to do public speaking or at least get into the speaking realm and building that out. And then consulting work, that's where I started to figure out, okay, well, if I can contract myself out, I can contract myself to speak and speak about these topics, then that's something that I would love to do. And so teaching helped with that. Some of the private practice helped me with that because I was talking with other social workers and therapists about private practice related things and managing what that looks like. And so we had that. And then with the brothers and social work collective was just me, my guy, Dr. James Bell, Chris Scott, hip hop, social worker, that's my guy. Pod

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Michael Fulwiler (00:48:31):

Father.

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Gary Taylor (00:48:32):

Pod father, the pod father, yes. We wanted to do something where it was like, well, we kind of doing similar things in these spaces. Let's kind of work together and pitch ourselves to universities or different agencies to talk about like A DEI, racial inequities and things like that. And so that kind of where it came about, I was just trying to diversify. I didn't want all the eggs to be in one basket around private practice, but let's diversify. So I have a breakup of the work each time. So when that shifted, I still had it. And then I had teaching and teaching is teaching. We take a course, teach it, you know what I'm saying? Papers grading, interacting with students. And I really fell in love with the idea of giving back to social work students and the program and helping build a program up.

‍

(00:49:18):

And so that's where I put a lot more time and energy into that. And then a lot more time and energy into the business around speaking and consulting, where I'm looking to use my skill sets, use my experience to help, whether that's in the academic space, but also in the community space, organizational, those space, workplace wellness, things like that to better those sort of situations. We don't have to always do therapy, but we can do groups. We can do some of the things around speaking on wellbeing, wellness, culture, competency, culture, humility in the workplace in these organizations, and trying to just take different version of my skillset and put out there into the atmosphere. So I think that's been successful. It's a little stagnant right now due to everything going on in the world, but we were able to create a CEU 2.5 CEUs in Virginia for engaging black men in therapy and social work. So I'm taking my direct experience, what I've been working on for the last few years, and then creating a CEU for providers as we go forward. And so that's been amazing, right? I never seen myself doing that. So it's just diversifying the income, diversifying the skillset to prevent the burnout, prevent how many different variations of ourselves can we create that can also give us opportunity to do other things. And I do like speaking and facilitating and so I try to do that as much as possible. I can

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Michael Fulwiler (00:50:44):

Definitely, I think it's a balance, right? Because doing other things gives you more flexibility where you can step away from private practice or wind down the private practice. You can focus on teaching, consulting, other streams of income and at the same time, having multiple streams of income could also lead to burnout if you're trying to do too many things.

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Gary Taylor (00:51:06):

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:51:06):

So how do you balance that?

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Gary Taylor (00:51:08):

Great, great statement on that, which I've been dealing with this last few weeks trying to figure that out. So I think I'm a hustler by nature and legally hustle by nature, legal house of by nature. And I think that is something that sometimes gets me in trouble. So just as much as I moved to prior practice out the way, I just added more stuff on my plate, did clinical supervision and it was doing more public speaking and stuff like that. And it's like, okay, this is still a lot, but it's more manageable I would say than the private practice piece because I was owner and operator, so I was doing marketing, billing therapy, books, all that. You name it, I was doing it versus where in the space of speaking or facilitating, I'm just doing one thing, one off or rinse and repeat. Doing something that I'm already been doing and putting it to different communities.

‍

(00:52:05):

It's the same thing and I'm learning and growing and adding to and specializing it more, but I've also had to balance income, making sure that the income is squared away. If the income is squared away, then I don't have to work as hard. And so I still got financial goals that I want to hit, things I want to see. But then also I start to have these questions about what does life look like for you, Trey? If everything is constant, what would you want to be doing? And trying to figure out what that would look like. That's the space I've been in. I need to balance that, right? It is just certain things that's just not going to happen as we get older and we're moving forward or we get into this space. So I'm still in the process of balancing and I'm still in the process of trying to figure out what that will look like because I also can't sit still.

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(00:52:54):

I can sit still, but I can't sit still, so I have to have something moving around or doing in those spaces. So for me though, the balance is just finances. I have to make sure that financially I feel secure in order to say no to this idea or activity to am I in a space of, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and do that because I can knock this out real quick. I can put this in savings type situation. If I get to that number, once I get to that number and that year or whenever that timeframe around or just to say for the number for the year, this is what I want to hit on for the year. If I hit it, I scale back. If I don't hit it, I still keep going until I hit it. So I think it's about a numbers thing.

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(00:53:35):

Everybody's numbers going to look different for the year or the ultimate goal. I think for me, once I get into this space of I know that the nine to five income is at a certain number, then I'll be able to start scaling back more. And I'm pretty sure that scale back is coming really soon actually at some point because I am kind of shifting my focus a little bit. And it is like I've done a lot here y'all go, somebody taking it, worm with it, build from it. I think it's about the number and if the number's right, you know what I'm saying? And outside of health factors, as long as health is good and mental is, then I can scale back and that's how I balance. Last year I did it, I hit a number, this number's going to carry us. Okay, cool, turn it off. And so I turned it off probably around August and just kind of scaled with what I had saying, even though October was super busy, but I was able to sit in a space of, alright, this is what we want to do this year, we did it. Cool. So the balances, the financial goals or any personal professional goals that you want to hit for the year, as long as you hit no things, then you can balance it that way.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:54:42):

Something we talk about at Heard is having a money plan. And it doesn't need to be complicated, it's just how much money do you need to cover your expenses, your rent, your mortgage groceries, your gas, those things. Do you want to go on vacation? Are there certain expenses that you want to be saving for? Do you want to buy a new car? Those types of things. And just back into that. And if I need to make X dollars in a year, what does that look like on a quarterly basis? What does that look like on a monthly basis? What does that look like on a weekly basis? Do I need to see more clients? Do I need to raise my rates? Do I need to think about cutting back on certain things? Maybe I'm spending time on things that aren't generating income or I'm not going to get to this number by doing the things that I'm doing, so let me reevaluate how I'm spending my time.

‍

(00:55:33):

And so I think if you can kind of break it up, because when you think about it on an annual basis, it can feel overwhelming. But if you're like, okay, what can I do this week? What can I do this month to get closer to that number? We're coming to the end here. I want to make sure that we plug your book. So you wrote a book, refresh the Journey to Find Peace. I got my copy. It's great. It really, I like learning more about you and your background and your story and your own challenges and struggles with mental health. I'm curious, what's the biggest takeaway for you or thing that you learned from writing a book?

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Gary Taylor (00:56:09):

That's my third book, technically role. The first one was you Good Fam Mentor up in the black community. And I did a workbook and this one I covert with my author, a guy St. Yon, who's an amazing writer and he helped write this book with me. And he was able to pull out a lot of stuff in our work together. I realized that these books that I've been writing or things how I've been building out my stuff have been kind of self-care pieces for myself, although I'm giving them to the community and to the public. I realized that a lot of what I was writing and things that I was putting out were kind of helping my own self and processing the thoughts that I was going through. So each continuum it looks like. So you good fan was really asking the questions, are you really good?

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(00:56:59):

And really establishing that. And then I had a period where I moved to feel good fan where I was putting in that action process of this is the action rub that we need to put in to do the work that we need to do. And then refresh is kind of again, kind of going with that retro model but refreshing, okay, let hit the refresh buttons, get back to our old selves, let's shed some stuff off. We know what's going on, we know what's happening, let's move forward and get to this place of peace. And that's been my journey for the last 10, 15 years. And so that's what I realized after writing this book was like, dang, this has been, I put it for everybody else, but it's really for myself to process everything that I've been going through and have went through in these spaces.

‍

(00:57:41):

And so I enjoy writing books. It is a process, but I enjoy writing it. And that was probably my most vulnerable book that I've ever written. Most vulnerable thing that I've ever did in that space. And I was really kind of fretful. I've talked about my parents and then on top of about my family members in there and my wife and stuff like that, I'm like, man, they're going to read this and Wild out. I'm saying, but it was strategic in how I written it that I can't put everything in there. And I was also interested in one of my uncles reading it, not the one that one of my uncles, how I highlighted that. I was like, shoot, what are he going to say? Because he OG with it and I don't know how he going to take it, but he didn't haven't said anything and he wasn't going to do anything on my pops read it.

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(00:58:24):

He didn't say anything. So it was certain themes in that I thought that some folks might say something I might go into, but they didn't say too much to me about, so I thought that that was good. You know what I'm saying? So I do flirt with the idea of doing another book at some point. I just don't know when. I don't know what theme I'm going to go with just yet, but I do flirt with the idea of doing something more. It might end up being more academic though, because I'm really looking at interventions and policy around that. So that might be more academic based, but we'll see what happens on that.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:58:55):

Definitely recommend getting a copy. Again, the title is Refresh Journey to Find Peace. We're going to wrap this up with a few rapid fire questions here. You ready? First question, career if you weren't a social worker or a mental health professional?

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Gary Taylor (00:59:15):

Car customizer.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:59:16):

Favorite sport to watch?

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Gary Taylor (00:59:17):

Basketball.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:59:20):
What's one thing you want people to know about black men's mental health?

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Gary Taylor (00:59:25):

That the suicide rate is increasing and it's at a public health crisis. And we need more services and policies around black men's mental health.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:59:36):

Favorite sneaker in your closet right now?

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Gary Taylor (00:59:37):

Oh my God, I got Grails in there. I got Grails in there, but I'm going to go with the most recent purchase. Joe Fresh, good New Balance collab. His most recent collab. I can't remember the phrase for it.

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Michael Fulwiler (00:59:53):

You’re a Sneakerhead. How many pairs of shoes do you think you own? If you had to say,

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Gary Taylor (01:00:01):

Oh man, I'm sure your wife could tell us. Yeah, taking over the closet. I think I'm in the sixties now. Wow. I'm telling on my friends. My friends got way more than that.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:00:16):

I'm tier three justification. Yeah, you're also a coffee guy. What's your go-to coffee order right now?

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Gary Taylor (01:00:23):

If I'm out, I'm trying to find a local coffee shop and I'm going to give me a caramel latte with oat milk. If I'm at home, I'm brewing black and bold, smooth operator.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:00:35):

And finally, what's one thing you want therapists, social workers, mental health professionals to take away from this conversation?

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Gary Taylor (01:00:43):

That we have a unique skillset that we can offer to the world. It doesn't have to be one way we can create, innovate, and offer ourselves in unique ways that can also help people and help change systems. So the training, all the papers, the things, the skillset, they can be utilized for different avenues to help make a change in the world. So make sure you tap in with them.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:01:10):

Love it. Trey, thank you so much for spending time with us. Folks can connect with you on social media at Retro GT. Where else can they find you if they're interested in learning more about the services that you offer or any products that you sell?

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Gary Taylor (01:01:24):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Definitely find me on LinkedIn, a guarantee. Gary Taylor Licensed Clinical Social Worker on LinkedIn. And then also my website, www.upholdthreeoneeight.com to learn more about all my services that are offering, what I'm trying to follow me and what I've got going on. And also the YouTube bays, the G Taylor show as well. 

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Michael Fulwiler (01:01:41):

Thank you, Trey. Appreciate you.

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Gary Taylor (01:01:42):

Thanks Mike. Appreciate it, man. Thank you for having me.

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Michael Fulwiler (01:01:45):

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School, brought to you by Heard, the financial management platform for therapists. To get the class notes for this week's episode, go to join Heard.com/podcast. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.