How Therapists Get Found Online with Dr. Marie Fang

Marie Fang (00:00)
2016, all my clients were local. They drove to see me I was only competing with the therapists that were, you know, within

Marie Fang (00:06)
a few mile radius of me.

Marie Fang (00:07)
And now, you know, in the era of virtual therapy,

Marie Fang (00:11)
like there's 39 million people in the state of California where I live. And there's like 121,000 mental health professionals, right? And I could feel like, my gosh, how am I gonna be? I can't be number one amongst 121,000. big companies are gonna win that game. and that can make people feel really defeated, understandably, but

Marie Fang (00:32)
I do think there's gonna be a small pool of people looking for a very specific niche. And it's an ever smaller pool of people looking for the more specific niche you have.

Marie Fang (01:21)
you ever want to refer, if you ever

Andrew (01:23)
Ha ha.

Marie Fang (01:23)
want to refer to me, but I'll say things

Andrew (01:29)
welcome to the show. If you are a therapist who has ever sat in a stable job, a good agency, a solid group practice, and quietly wondered if you could ever do this on your own,

Andrew (01:40)
this episode is for you, and we have the foremost expert here to help us. My guest today is Dr. Marie Fang. She is a licensed psychologist in San Diego, and she is the founder of.

Andrew (01:52)
Private practice skills. And if you've ever thought about starting a private practice, I guarantee you've come across some of her material. she's taught a huge community of therapists the business side of this work that nobody covered in grad school. But here's a part I want you to hold on to. Once upon a time, Marie was just like you opening her

Andrew (02:12)
private practice back in 2012. And she had no idea how to get clients, which feels like a crazy thing to say because she is that person for all of us now.

Andrew (02:22)
and most of what she tried didn't work and it took a couple of years to fill her caseload. And so everything that you are going to hear today comes from somebody who has not only been through this experience, lived this experience, but also been through the many transformations of what it means to market your private practice. And so I am super excited to be here today with you, Marie.

Marie Fang (02:44)
So excited to be here as well. And I'm so excited that I get to be like the the first inaugural get the like little tech glitches out of the way version of this too.

Andrew (02:57)
Yes, what you all missed prior to us kicking off this podcast was Marie coaching me and the team internally on how to actually set up and manage a podcast. This is from the YouTube and podcast Extraordinaire herself. So we feel

Marie Fang (03:11)
Yeah.

Andrew (03:11)
very grateful to have this opportunity to kick things off with you. But just take us back to 2012. I think coming into it, it coming into this podcast, I was so excited to talk to you about.

Andrew (03:23)
you starting your own practice. Cause I think what most of the people probably think about when they think about Dr. Marie Fang right now is private practice skills and you have this amazing brand and everything that you've built around that to support clinicians. But when you started your practice, what did that feel like? What were those few first few months of starting your practice and, you know, what did that process feel like for you?

Marie Fang (03:47)
Yeah. it well, it was a hot mess. That's the best summary I can give. And also I was like I was fresh out of graduate school too. So it at least in in my state and my credentials, you can start in private practice even before you're licensed as long as you're supervised. And I wasn't even looking to be in private practice. I just needed my postdoc hours and I could not get a job anywhere for the life of me. And I finally landed this

Marie Fang (04:16)
private practice gig. So I was I had a supervisor and and so there were others around too. It was a a group practice. but I was on my own when it came to marketing and I I had no idea. I had no idea what I I just I I don't know if people still think this way now in twenty twenty six, but I just went into it thinking like, you just like I don't know, you just show up and you get clients from somewhere. I don't I just figured there was an easy way and it turns out

Marie Fang (04:41)
it it wasn't easy at all. and it was in San Francisco. So even though it was 2012, a long time ago, it was quite saturated with therapists. Like you couldn't just fill your practice with a, you know, online directory profile kind of thing in that era in San Francisco. There had to be some kind of strategy to it. So that's like a little window into where I was coming from as we, as I had no idea what I was doing.

Andrew (05:10)
So for you moving into private practice while you're working towards licensure, there's a number of different pathways that you can take to get going. One of which is moving into a group practice where a lot of that work is taken care of for you. But you came into a situation where, great, you're an independent contractor within this group practice, getting your licensure hours.

Andrew (05:35)
But the caveat of that is, you also had to act as a private practice owner. Where did you even start thinking about acquiring clients, marketing? You'd probably never even heard that word before.

Marie Fang (05:48)
And I didn't we didn't even call it marketing, right? It's just sort of like how do you we called it referrals, like where do you get referrals from? And and like bless their hearts. The the folks in this group practice had been in this group practice primarily for like decades, right? So they had their established like word-of-mouth referrals, and they were giving me tips that they used like in the 80s, which I'm sure was great in the 80s, but like we were sending out, I kid you not, we sent out snail mail flyers.

Marie Fang (06:17)
like we have a new intern. And they sent it to all of their like referral sources where they were getting referrals from. And if I got any referrals from those snail mail flyers, I'd never heard of it. I did I doubt it. and yeah, I mean I put I did put up a profile on psychology today. I think from psychology today, I got my first client like three or six months in

Marie Fang (06:43)
and by one year in I probably had like two or three clients a week. Like it was abysmal. And I was trying to get to twenty clients a week. So that that was far from my goal. and I was thinking, where am I gonna get these hours for licensure and all of that? So I had yeah, I'd never heard of marketing and and that wasn't like a word in the repertoire of like

Marie Fang (07:03)
building up a referral network was kind of the the mindset of the folks around me. So I did do a lot of like cold calling and reaching out to see if I could do networking, which eventually did pick up steam, but that one's kind of like that one's you got to put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into that for a while before it kind of starts to build, or at least for me that was the case. so it took a while before I learned some of the other strategies that I now lean on primarily

Marie Fang (07:31)
To fill my practice, but that's kind of where my humble beginnings started from back then.

Andrew (07:37)
What was your mindset? You had mentioned that for really over the course of a year you had not it took it took kind of incremental moments for you to actually get to the place where you felt comfortable that you had a a filled practice or were closer to that place. What was what was the mindset for you throughout that process while you were experimenting with new ways of getting clients and you know?

Andrew (08:05)
maybe not at the place where you thought you should be or wanted to be.

Marie Fang (08:09)
Yeah. I did I I will say I did enjoy networking. And so at at some point I s it it started to morph into like I'm just gonna do things that I enjoy and hopefully some of it works, which is not necessarily the strategy I recommend because it made it take a lot longer, but I did start to try to lean into teaching, which is something that I love. Surprise, surprise, because you know, here we are. I like to talk about stuff for private practice skills and teach things, but I would

Marie Fang (08:37)
Try to reach out to local organizations that I thought could potentially be a good referral source and offer free trainings. like for example, there was a short-term residential, like kind of crisis program in San Francisco. And I would do some free trainings where I would teach their staff about, you know, how to identify crisis moments or when to refer, when to offer other types of resources. And I really enjoy doing that.

Marie Fang (09:06)
And my hope was that I would get clients referred to me. But what ended up happening is like the staff ended up, you know, getting comfortable with me and then like they would refer their friends and things like that.

Andrew (09:16)
Sure.

Marie Fang (09:16)
so then I realized, okay, there there's there's some strategy in here. But I did really enjoy just sort of giving free information to teach people appropriately within my knowledge set.

Marie Fang (09:29)
But still that was it's still it wasn't until I launched a separate private practice in twenty sixteen that I started doing a different strategy that I now keep doing, if that makes sense.

Andrew (09:40)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it sounds like, if I'm playing back to you what you're saying, is that you found a thing that felt maybe comfortable and even interesting and exciting for you that enabled you to kind of keep going through that process of getting to the place where you had a a full practice and for you that was networking and that was teaching and doing things that you kind of love that still show up.

Andrew (10:07)
In my words today and all of the work that you're doing, what's so for somebody sitting in a stable agency or a group right now or some sort of community system that's thinking about going solo, that's hearing that it takes a bit of time, that it's kind of hard to do that, what would be the one thing that you want them to hear before we kind of get into the nitty-gritty and tactical of how they actually do that?

Marie Fang (10:29)
Yeah. I mean, I think the the fact that it takes a bit of time, I know that that's stressful. Like if you could just switch into private practice and have a full caseload, like that sure sounds real nice. But I also think like to me, like now looking back, of course it's always easy to say stuff like this in hindsight, but like looking back, like there was so much like personal development for me. And the the fact that it was such a slow build meant that I really had to think about like well what

Marie Fang (10:57)
kind of practice do I want to build? And I didn't know how to answer that question from day one, right? But eventually I realized that there's certain things that are really important to me. There's certain types of populations that I really like working with, certain treatment approaches, and also even like certain types of things that I enjoy doing that, as it turns out, can also be a marketing strategy. So there is like the same way, maybe similar, I know this might be hard to hear to my fellow therapists out there, but

Marie Fang (11:24)
Like similar to how like we've sometimes we have clients come in and they're like, okay, so how many sessions do I need to come in? Like we were thinking like one to five sessions and we're gonna be good to go. It's like maybe for the occasional item someone might might be able to do it quickly. But most of the time, right, we're also kind of inviting our clients into a little bit of a longer journey to get to some of the the goals and have them stick that they want to get to. And that it really is a valuable process. So I think

Marie Fang (11:53)
not that it needs to be drawn out extensively or as long as it was drawn out for me the first time, I did have another go around a second time and it went much smoother. But it still took time, right? There's still a runway of, you know, months, hopefully not years, to kind of parse it out and like try things on and and a little bit of like taking your time. so I know that's easier said than done and required like there's resources involved to like make that happen. But

Marie Fang (12:20)
that's kind of the takeaway I'd say. It's like, yeah, embrace the process. You get to like learn and grow and build this like it's kind of like your little little baby almost, right? And make it make it what you want. Yeah.

Andrew (12:33)
How much during that process, or I guess for folks that want to take that step into private practice, what needed to be true for you while you were building up your caseload and income? And this might be a question that's like personal to you, but everybody has their own path where journey. But like to be able to sustain that or support that, because I think a lot of people

Andrew (13:01)
sit on this concept of like, I'm gonna straddle until I like fully do the splits and then I'm gonna make the jump over. But you know, what made that possible for you early on in the journey to be able to take the time to build the caseload that was necessary to do that?

Marie Fang (13:17)
yeah. That I mean, again, I would replace this is like don't do what Marie did the first time episode, right? Like what I did, I had I needed my postdoc hours. So we w somehow I had made more money in graduate school than I was making having finished graduate school because I had, you know, a T aide and I did all these side jobs and saved this tiny little savings and then we were spending our savings to pay our rent. because both my husband and I were in our

Marie Fang (13:46)
our postgrad trainings earning like no money. So it was chaotic and I don't recommend doing it that way. And I ended up having to get side jobs outside of the field in order to fund our lives, help fund our lives, like entry level minimum wage jobs. So yeah, that was tough. I think if I were doing it today, if I had like the agency job or

Marie Fang (14:10)
something like that and I wanted to make the transition to private practice. I think there's more than one way to play it, but it it is really helpful to think of it as something that requires either available budget, like if you have the amazing privilege of like there's some money in savings or you want to save up for a little bit to have a longer runway and breathing room. Or sometimes it's possible to just start like dabbling on the side. And I know that's easier said than done. Like if you're working 40 or more hours a week.

Marie Fang (14:41)
Seeing however many therapy clients and maybe you also have kids or others in your life that you're taking care of or tending to. and then to say, like, well, where on the side am I gonna start seeing therapy clients? That's fair. but I think if I were, if I were doing it today, I would see if I could either kind of just dabble on the side, starting with the emphasizing the marketing approach rather than can I have a couple of clients, but more of like, can I build a marketing strategy where I'm at least getting people asking me?

Marie Fang (15:10)
if I if I'm available to see clients. and if you're starting to get that cue come through, then you can s find ways to start making that transition over again. That's gonna look different for everybody kind of depending. But yeah, embracing that it's a slow build and then finding the appropriate either budget or time in your schedule to do it that way, I think is helpful.

Andrew (15:33)
talked to you so many times at this point and I don't think I've ever heard the like true actual story of what it took for you to get off the ground and get going and straddling to doctoral program salaries.

Marie Fang (15:46)
Yeah.

Andrew (15:47)
Is not for the faint of heart and is really challenging and is such a limiting factor for so many folks that are trying to come into the field and move beyond just the graduate program. So it's really cool to hear that story from you. And also the reframe from you that like everybody's path is going to look different because at that point in time you might not have had kids, I don't think. And so

Marie Fang (16:05)
Yeah.

Andrew (16:06)
what's true then is probably different than what would be true now.

Marie Fang (16:09)
Yeah. And I this was I'm older now too. Like I was able to like pull extra time at night and things. And now I'm like, nope, forget it. Like my I clock out and I'm done. So I I think that maybe that is the important takeaway of like build building the practice that fits for you, which is part of the amazing I why I love pri one of the reasons why I love private practice, and making sure that your process of building that practice also aligns with that, like this, I'm gonna do this in the way that fits for me or me and my family.

Marie Fang (16:39)
and not necessarily like this is the one way that I don't know, Marie or whoever said you're supposed to do it and I have to do it that way 'cause then you might just be replicating some of those like the employer becomes following this model instead of just you are your own employer. And so you get to do it whatever way you want.

Andrew (16:58)
Yeah, 100%. Putting on the entrepreneurship hat and recognizing that you're able to instill your own values in how you approach your work and the way that you want to structure your schedule. I want to dive into some of the the tactics and for lack of less corny terms, kind of like marketing 101. And maybe we don't want to use the mark the word scary word marketing here, because I think there's a big ick associated with marketing and sales for many of the clinicians that I've gotten to know over the years. but I think

Andrew (17:27)
Plenty of clinicians hear this word and kind of tense up. It feels salesy, it feels like braggy. How do you reframe what marketing actually is and means for a therapist?

Marie Fang (17:37)
Yes. I could talk about this so long because it it is such a I get I get the hang up, right? And and I think we there has to be a reframe because we hear marketing and this was me too, right? We hear marketing and we interpret that word to mean for a lot of us, I am trying to sell you a product that you might not really need and make it look shiny, but it's like, you know, I covered it in foil and called it silver or something, right? And just

Marie Fang (18:07)
what a scam, right? And so I don't want to do that. I d I yes, I do not want to do that. That sounds unethical and not aligned with my values and all of those things. But if we're thinking of it as like somebody is looking for a specific service and we have we might have the exact service that they're looking for. They're wondering if that service exists and by service I mean I'm using that broadly, right? That therapy could mean different things for different people. But if somebody's looking for help

Marie Fang (18:35)
and you have exactly what they need help with, like they they want to find you. They're actively looking for for whether it's you specifically or looking for this this service that you provide that can help them have the thing that they want or the change that they want. And so marketing is really just finding the way to be very clear and okay, here's the thing that I can offer or series of things.

Marie Fang (19:00)
And there are certain people in certain situations who are gonna be overjoyed when they discover that I'm here and available, offering them that help. And marketing is really just the series of steps to build a bridge between here's this person looking for exactly what I have, and here's me with exactly what I have. Because they can't just like find it magically by like, I don't know, telepathically thinking about it. Though maybe technology will go that way someday. But for now, they have to.

Marie Fang (19:29)
They have to discover you in some way, whether they're going on a search online or through AI or they're asking a friend or their primary care physician or somewhere, and you have to be visible somewhere, even if it's through word of mouth. But it in some way, people have to be able to discover you and know that you exist and offer the services that you offer. So if we reframe it that way, then it just feels like how do we deliver.

Marie Fang (19:55)
Like the hope that we have to offer as like the the whole reason why we're here is we want to help people. and we want the people who want to find us to find us. And that's really what marketing is. if I could that's what I think of marketing at least.

Andrew (20:12)
I like that reframe. And it's orienting around helping others, which is the reason that you got into the profession and every clinician gets into the profession. It's that you have this thing that you've been trained to do that you can help others. why not tell that story and you know help those folks find you? I'm curious, talking about, I guess, picking a niche, which you've probably talked about a couple of times over at this point.

Andrew (20:40)
like how important is that? And I'm curious of like the twenty twelve version of you versus the twenty sixteen version of you, talking about your own story and in picking a niche and identifying that place that you've landed right now. Like how different was that and how did you get to that place where you felt really comfortable with your very specific niche that you focus on right now?

Marie Fang (21:00)
Yeah. Yeah. That was, I mean, that was a process on multiple levels because I can there's that sense of like I you know, this phrase it's maybe it's problematic, but like beggars can't be choosers, right? Of like I have this empty caseload, or you know, maybe I get to this point where I had like one or two clients coming in, which I was grateful for, but like I was looking to have a more full practice than that. and so if I niche down, that just sounds

Marie Fang (21:25)
Like, are you out of your mind? Like what I can't I can't be picky because even when I'm broad, like no one's coming in. So if I niche down, then I'm gonna I'm gonna exclude all these people. And so from from a business point of view, it felt like it didn't make sense fulfilling my practice from like a caring for others and making sure everybody has access to care. It felt like it's excluding people. So that felt out of alignment with my values. So like absolutely not. I'm not gonna niche down.

Marie Fang (21:54)
And realizing over time of quite a journey that that niching is a way to fill my practice. And it it doesn't actively exclude people, but it's goes back to that like reframe of marketing. Like if somebody is in a situation where they need help, if I'm sitting here and I'm going like, hey, I'm a therapist and I have all the credentials needed to be a helpful therapist and effective.

Marie Fang (22:19)
and somebody's dealing with this like very specific issue, like so many people are gonna be like, Well, but one, are you trained to help me? But also there's that that that fear of like, can anybody help me? Like it does help exist for me, for someone in my shoes? Am I totally hopeless? And when you're in that camp, which is so many people when they're looking for a therapist, and they find that you're not just a therapist who's qualified to do therapy, but

Marie Fang (22:48)
you're a therapist who specializes in this exact thing that they're experiencing and they need help with. And you've worked with this before, there's a whole plan or approach that's effective. Like immediately like for that person, they are going to feel included rather than, you know, this kind of active exclusion of others. And other people, even who might not fit neatly within that niche exactly.

Marie Fang (23:13)
might still kind of see enough of who you are or or connect with your area of specialty that it also makes them feel included. Like I get those calls too, right? Where people are like, Well, this isn't exactly what you do, but I saw that you said this or that, and I really related with this in this kind of tangential way. And I hope that's okay. And it's like, yeah, it's okay. Okay. so so it ends up kind of having a little bit of the opposite effect. and that was something I sort of discovered

Marie Fang (23:42)
accidentally as I went, as my my niche kind of found me as I was working with clients. and so I started to embrace that more as I realized, this is actually really helpful to say that I specialize and I didn't even say specialize at the time. I was just saying like I keep having experiences with these certain presenting issues. So then I would, you know, announce it. It starts to become more of a niche. So

Marie Fang (24:08)
then I reaped the benefits of and realized actually really like this and it seems to be working from a business point of view and my clients like it too. So let's let's use that as part of the strategy then too.

Andrew (24:20)
Yeah, it feels like something that was curated over time for you through trial and error of what worked. I'm curious, just like on the day-to-day, like as you were getting to that place where you had this niche that you're at and you always seem like you have such an incredible level of like positive energy and excitement in your work. Were there ever periods of time where you had

Andrew (24:44)
Caseloads as you were trying to get to that niche or place to where you did feel like your energy was down or your energy was drained, or you're like, wow, this isn't the right fit for me, but I don't know what to do about it. How do I say no to these people?

Marie Fang (24:57)
yeah. I didn't that's interesting. I didn't have as much of the how do I say no to certain people, but I reali that one of the stuck points that was kind of specific to my niche for me that did make me feel down and and questi like questioned if it was okay and possible is and so I'll name my niche because it's very specific, but

Marie Fang (25:18)
where I came from in that group practice in 2012, it was it was a Christian practice. And so I was just sort of like generic Christian therapist Marie humming along. And a lot of the people who ended up coming through were local church clergy.

Marie Fang (25:32)
and a lot of folks who were kind of in their younger year, the fellow millennials, if you will, who were working at local churches. And as I was working with folks, it just kept seeming to come up over and over again that several of the for folks that I was working with were closeted LGBTQ Christians. And so many of them were working in these church contexts where their religious community and their job was not affirming. and so that was

Marie Fang (26:00)
A journey for me to to learn so much and discover for myself, even kind of have to do my own wrestling with like this theology that I sort of inherited, and then working with these folks and realizing like I'm I am fully affirming of all of these different aspects of their identity and seeing how much harm was coming out from from coming out.

Marie Fang (26:22)
coming up for these people who had to ha felt that they had to hide this really significant part of who they are and then dealing with these these other kind of maybe I'm treating them for anxiety or depression or something, but like well realizing so much of that could be tied for to being closeted and and all the oppression that they were experiencing. So that was something that became a pat it like found me, but then I latched on and loved just diving in, learning so much about this particular intersection.

Marie Fang (26:51)
of LGBTQ Christians and getting training and all of that. And so I struggled with this question for a long time. Like I probably sat on it for a year or two of wondering if it was okay for me to have this niche where I work with LGBTQ Christians and I'm Christian and I'm affirming because eve especially then, you know, more than 10 years ago, but still now, I knew that I I might be blacklisted from some of my referral sources that weren't affirming. 'cause

Marie Fang (27:21)
I'm like affirming these different folks in these church communities. Well, meanwhile, you know, the the leadership in those communities might not agree with that approach. And eventually I decided like I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't be okay with myself knowing that like as you know, a highly privileged like cisgender heterosexual white woman that like I'm too scared to sort of quote unquote come out.

Marie Fang (27:48)
as an affirming Christian therapist when I'm, you know, supposedly trying to help these clients that I'm working with come out in far, far, far more treacherous context. So if I'm unwilling to put this thing on my website, like who am I? Who am I to say that this is what I do and what I support? So that was kind of like the turning point for me where I I did think I was going to

Marie Fang (28:14)
be limited as far as like getting referrals. because I figured a lot of churches wouldn't refer to me anymore. but I also like didn't feel okay with staying like keeping that a secret, so to speak, put from the public. So I decided to just do it anyway and like put it on my website, put it every you know, all the internet things. and I did I did stop getting referrals from so because I'd built up some of you know these great referral networks amongst other

Marie Fang (28:43)
various communities, but including non-affirming churches. And I didn't get referrals from them anymore. unless it was like, you know, that person's friend of a friend or whatever started referring people. But it's still it was the right decision because it was aligned with my values. But also surprisingly, even though I got blacklisted in all these different referral sources, like it just opened up so many more folks who it makes sense, right? If if you haven't told anybody

Marie Fang (29:10)
About your gender or sexuality in a community where you're basically either told or feel that you're not allowed to, you're probably gonna look online if you haven't talked to anybody else about it. And so I had all these people finding me online who,

Andrew (29:24)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Fang (29:25)
you know, maybe they've never come out to anybody before, never even asked these questions about their identity before. And then finally, here I put it, I spelled it all out there for you on my page and

Marie Fang (29:37)
hopefully for some folks who are looking for this, they can feel seen both through their faith lens and their gender sexuality and whatever else they might be experiencing. So it ended up like making my practice just always full, always people contacted me, especially at that time where I wasn't really encountering other therapists, at least who were public about it, therapists publicly posting this kind of niche. so

Marie Fang (30:03)
It ended up being like a again, that's this is like marketing in my mind, right? Like the non-sleazy version of marketing of like, I really love this, I'm really equipped to work with this, let me be as public about it as I can. And for that person who's looking for that, who might not otherwise reach out to a therapist, if you know, in some cases, would find me and go, my gosh, I didn't know this was even a thing. Yay, let me go out on a limb and reach out. so it's like a win across the board.

Andrew (30:32)
That's extremely courageous, first of all. personal anecdote.

Marie Fang (30:36)
Not as courageous

Marie Fang (30:37)
as my clients.

Andrew (30:39)
That

Andrew (30:39)
yeah, that's very true. You're I like the the analogy of you coming out in your your own context. but a personal anecdote, growing up in a Christian household and having a sibling that's gone through this exact process, I'm

Marie Fang (30:52)
Mm.

Andrew (30:52)
very grateful for the work that you've done to support those communities.

Andrew (30:57)
From a business standpoint for the entrepreneurs on this call that are listening, looking for tactics, I think what's more helpful is talking about it, not in the broad sweeping terms, but you talked about referral communities being, you know, taken away when you made this decision for yourself that existed before. And this could happen for anybody that's niching down in their own way, because you're gonna alienate a certain portion of the audience. And then you talked about going online. What were kind of the the two to three things for you that?

Andrew (31:26)
When you found this niche really started working, and maybe just a really quick anecdote before that, how long did it take you from two thousand twelve to when you found this niche?

Marie Fang (31:37)
Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, there I went through that period where I was like, I knew on the inside that this is what I really wanted, but I wasn't announcing it. like when I had a client call in, a potential client call in, I would say that I was affirming and stuff. But yeah, it was probably like two years of working in this group practice and realizing like, my goodness, how man like if people only knew how many closeted Christians are just sort of floating around, not floating around, but I'm saying that term because it

Marie Fang (32:04)
It's like in positions of high authority in churches and things and nobody knows, right? And this is like no one's talking about this, or we should do something. so that took me about two years and then it was like a about another two years before I went off and I launched my own practice in a different city. and that's when I shared, you know, somewhere around then is when I put it on my website and put it everywhere. so that

Marie Fang (32:30)
That was the process.

Andrew (32:31)
what did you do beyond that? Or was it truly like you did a website rewrite and then all of a sudden SEO was rocking, or like what happened from I've identified what I want to focus on, we've determined the niche.

Andrew (32:45)
I rewrote the website, like from there, how does that how does that happen?

Marie Fang (32:50)
Yes.

Marie Fang (32:51)
Yes. Thank you. the the practical of it. Yeah. There was something about like really getting clear on that niche that made me so motivated to do a deep dive on marketing strategy. and I at that this mind you, this is 2016. So there's so much information now, 10 years later, at almost to the other extreme where it gets overwhelming. Like, which information do I follow? Or there's like 20 different things I can do to market my practice. But back then it was like,

Marie Fang (33:17)
There no one was talking, it seemed like to me, like har very few people. and certainly if we're talking about online marketing, like it was there was so little information for therapists. It was really just like put a profile in psychology today and like hope for the best. was most of the information out there. So what I decided to do, because I realized like I would go to other therapist websites and I would find myself feeling really disappointed with what I was finding on them. Not not disappointed with the therapist, but like the websites.

Marie Fang (33:46)
were just like they weren't doing anything good for the client or the therapist, right? And it's like okay, we know that we're maybe supposed to make one, but we don't have any tools to do that successfully. And so this is what it looks like when a therapist tries their best to like hobble together a website. It's totally understandable. So what I decided to do was I was like, well, marketing online should be the same regardless of your profession. So I started taking online courses about how to market online from

Marie Fang (34:15)
non-therapists just like and some of it was like free online reads. There's like I use like SEM rush or just different online tools that are still around. At least back then they had a bunch of free trainings. and I would just like gobbled it all up and learned about SEO through that. That was when I first learned about SEO and h heard of it even. And I didn't have like all the like tricks in the bag of like how to do SEO amazingly, but I realized like, if I put

Marie Fang (34:45)
s even a little bit of effort into this. Like at that point no one else was doing anything SEO in our field. So it was like, if I spent just a little bit of time on SEO, I'm gonna just keep popping up for these search results. And back that was pre-AI and pre all the things that are around now. But like just my website was enough to just like I put up some blogs, I had my specialties pages, I had my keywords locked in and I started getting referral like

Marie Fang (35:14)
people just finding me my through my website through a Google search. That was kind of at that point, 2016, where I kind of locked it in. That only took like it again, that was like months rather than years for the referrals to start coming in. And this was when I was still only in person too. So this is like limited to people who could drive to my office. of course it's shifted over time in the last 10 years, but that's what it looked like back then.

Andrew (35:40)
Amazing. And so your experience was that at this point in time, SEO was the big opportunity. You found a niche and you started to see an impact from there. And then you also had the referral communities as well from that group practice. And then maybe some secret, secret, secret referrals from folks that didn't want to tell people that they were referring back to you, even though they knew that you were doing great work.

Andrew (36:04)
I want to talk about relationships really quickly. And so you built a lot of relationships in the community, and a lot of therapists underestimate referrals and are like pretty afraid of coming across as transactional or salesy when they're reaching out to the psychiatrist or the physician or you know, the church community that you were a part of. How would you recommend somebody gets

Andrew (36:25)
started there in a way that doesn't feel transactional and feels kind of connected to their values.

Marie Fang (36:30)
Yes, I love that question. And I think I can see because I I've lived on both sides of those of like, no, I know I'm supposed to like network, but I'm allergic and I just I don't what are you saying? Here's my business back then. It was like here's my business card and I work with this like list of ten things. I'm like, okay. And then nothing happens. Well, for me at least that's what how that went. But then I've been on the other side of it where it's like networking is like one of my favorite parts now of being in private practice and I can

Marie Fang (37:00)
I can have a gap in my schedule where I take a two and a half hour lunch and hang out with another therapist with these like overlapping interests, right? And it's like it's a networking lunch, but really we're just also having a blast. And so I think that the niching has a lot to do with that as well, right? Because, you know, if you're just sort of again generic generalist therapists, then you might just sort of randomly feel like you're randomly reaching out, whether it's to other therapists or physicians or professionals, different communities, but if you have a niche,

Marie Fang (37:30)
there there's like a very clear path to specific to that niche. So I can't like prescribe it for everybody, but it becomes much easier to realize where it makes sense to reach out. And it open almost happens from like the reverse motivation. So rather than it feeling like, how do I get clients? Well, who do I reach out to who can send me those clients and like let me follow through? It's more of like, I'm really passionate about working with LGBTQ Christians in San Jose, where I lived at the time.

Marie Fang (37:58)
let me reach out to the you know the local LGBTQ center and see what questions they have. Do they need any free trainings? I would love to do that. I love to teach and happy to offer that service for free. And then a kind of, you know, there could be a fun surprise along the way to realize, like, I might actually be a great referral source for them too. They might like to meet someone like me. like reaching out, so I reached out to affirming churches in the area.

Marie Fang (38:25)
so that was like an like an easier in, right? Cause they were having trouble finding affirming Christian therapists. so and I would reach out and like genuinely be interested in hanging out with these people. and now even today, it's like if there's somebody who a therapist or professional who has shared overlaps like in my local area, if I discover them or they reach out to me.

Marie Fang (38:50)
It's like I want, I want to meet that person and we're gonna and they're gonna be great for consultation, or maybe I need to refer, I need to refer to other professionals as well sometimes and having those resources or sh like swapping notes of like, I took this training, like you don't have to do the whole 20 hours. Here's a quick summary of the on this like thing that I'm super niche down on when you're kind of working adjacent or that kind of thing. So it ends up being kind of like motivated more from a professional development.

Marie Fang (39:18)
personal like getting out of being so isolated and finding fellow communities, whether it's locally or across your jurisdiction, who share similar interests or areas of focus. And then those naturally, organically also can be referral sources. Like I I very rarely, I don't remember the last time I s used the phrase like, if

Marie Fang (39:39)
you ever want to refer, if you ever

Andrew (39:41)
Ha ha.

Marie Fang (39:42)
want to refer to me, but I'll say things

Marie Fang (39:43)
like, hey, I'm gonna keep you in mind for referrals because I get

Marie Fang (39:47)
You know, like I don't know, I don't work with teens, but if I have a referral for a teen come through, like I I got a friend, you know. So and then then they might say, like, yeah, of course, like I refer to you all the time, right? That sort of thing. So that was maybe a long answer, but that's that's how I I think niching works really well with making networking feel a lot more fun. And it doesn't feel like networking, it's just more organic.

Andrew (40:12)
Yeah, long answers are good answers, by the way. Dr.

Marie Fang (40:14)
Perfect. All of mine are long.

Andrew (40:19)
So for the it feels like everything is like threading back to the niching, how you did the website, how you focused on SEO, your ability to focus on community in a way that gave you energy. I guess looking back, it feels like referrals and communities are always going to be a place that.

Andrew (40:40)
serves the private practice and helps you grow the private practice. But there's like so much recon changing right now with AI and search change Google search surface area change. Like what's the story that you're telling the therapist now with you know, this thing that worked really well for you that may not work in the same way because you have a lot of companies that are paying a lot of money to get that space. Like what the heck do people do now? Like what do people do now?

Marie Fang (41:09)
Yeah, that is the that is the qu I've hearing that question so much of like, that's

Andrew (41:11)
Yeah.

Marie Fang (41:13)
great, Marie. That worked in twenty sixteen. And it's so true, like keyword research was like a thing I was spending so much time on. And if you've never, you know, if people listening, if you never heard of that, it really almost doesn't matter now. But that was like the thing that I spent so much time on back then and it's totally different. And I think I there I there's many ways to play it. I think a a a general kind of framework to that I like to operate from is

Marie Fang (41:37)
If you are the more general or generalist you are, then the more work, let's say, or marketing dollars you might need to expect to put forward in order to like win the SEO and AI game. and the more specialized, the more niche you are.

Marie Fang (41:58)
The easier the easier it is to win because if you think about it, like I I actually just recorded an episode about this this week. So it's like fresh on my mind. I was editing this video. I was thinking about it like, you know, 2016, all my clients were local. They drove to see me or, you know, took the bus or whatever. And I was only competing with the therapists that were, you know, within a few mile radius of me.

Marie Fang (42:21)
And now, you know, in the era of virtual therapy, like there's 39 million people in the state of California where I live. And there's like 121,000 mental health professionals, right? And I could feel like, my gosh, how am I gonna be? I can't be number one amongst 121,000. Like if that's you know, big companies are gonna win that game. and that can make people feel really defeated, understandably, but

Marie Fang (42:48)
I do think if I think of it as like there's gonna be a small pool of people looking for a very specific niche. And it's an ever smaller pool of people looking for the more specific niche you have. But then there might also only be like three therapists in California who specialize in that. And and then it might be that like we can all just stay full and like only have to do a couple things on our our website and our online presence. There's more things you can do outside of your website to boost your SEO.

Marie Fang (43:18)
But it doesn't take that much effort. And I'll I'll put it this way, like I I put so little effort into SEO right now still, because I was used to be getting so many referrals that there was no way I could respond to all of them. So I've on purpose slowed down because I am so niched that like it's just sort of a different supply and demand equation, even in the land of SEO. Like if somebody's looking for

Marie Fang (43:45)
An affirming Christian therapist. Like, there's only so many of us that advertise that. and so I'm still showing up with my like very bare bones, straightforward website and online presence. So that that's kind of the the main framework that I like to say. Like the more specific you get, the easier it is to show up with SEO, the more broad you are, the more kind of

Marie Fang (44:11)
juice you have to have in order to show up. Like I think of like, you know, if you think of like a big restaurant chain versus like the

Andrew (44:16)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Fang (44:16)
mom and pop shop around the corner, like the mom and pop shop that's trying to sell every single food item that on the planet, it's just never gonna win. The chain is going to win. But if you have like the best, you know, I don't know, carnitas tacos with like handmade tortillas and all day, like maybe you're gonna have a line out the door still. So that was my that's what I always want to eat. But so that's why I brought that up.

Andrew (44:40)
I'm literally

Andrew (44:41)
so hungry that makes makes me even more hungry. so what what you're saying is that as you niche down, these folks that maybe even share the same meat are not your enemies. They actually may be your friends and future referral partners. And those are parts of those relationships that you want to lean into.

Marie Fang (44:59)
Yes.

Andrew (45:01)
okay, social media really quickly, because we can't talk about actually before we talk about social media and

Andrew (45:08)
Brief interlude pause. how much do you like wanna talk about AI? Cause I'd love to if you have like commentary that you'd like to make on AI and how marketing translates back for a therapist. But like if that's an area where you're like, I don't really like care to talk about it or have much to say, we can continue down the social media path.

Marie Fang (45:30)
I'm ha I I'm more like intrigued now. Like you gave this disclaimer. So what at l like what is that? I'm happy to talk

Andrew (45:35)
No, okay.

Marie Fang (45:39)
about it. I'm not like an expert, but I'm happy to talk about it. I'm not it's not like a space I'm not open to.

Andrew (45:42)
Okay, cool.

Andrew (45:46)
how do I want to frame this question in my mind? Okay. okay, so there was SEO. You talked about the importance of niching down, and historically it was this SEO worked. I went to Google, I'm looking for an affirming therapist based in San Jose that really likes Carnitas tacos.

Andrew (46:09)
What does that look like now? Cause everybody is hearing about Chat GPT and Anthropic and Claude, and we all have our own perspectives and feelings about these different services. But at the end of the day, for a a business owner, they need to figure out how to show up there and resonate with their audiences there. How how does a therapist do that? And I know so much of that is changing right now.

Marie Fang (46:32)
Yeah. I think there are a lot of strategies you can use as I am still I think on it all of us are learning, right? Even the experts are right. It's like 'cause it's so much changing, so new. But some of the the things one of the this is like the most simple first takeaway that was like mind blowing for me because I personally like don't enjoy using AI and that tr that the you know, these different platforms.

Marie Fang (46:57)
like chat GPT and Claude. Like I I don't like how I feel when I use them. So at first I thought, well, I'm just gonna have to figure out my marketing without AI then. And I realized

Andrew (47:04)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Fang (47:05)
that what was happening is I was still getting referrals. Like clients were finding me through AI recommendations. And I'm like, well, wait, I didn't I didn't even touch AI. So how are you finding but realize okay, AI is using these other markers. I don't need to like log in to chat GPT to like have an AI strategy. And even even if you are

Marie Fang (47:25)
You know, there's plenty of reasons to be upset or have qualms with AI, but you're still gonna be having clients looking for a therapist through AI. So it's helpful to use these strategies to still be recommended there. so yeah, you don't have to touch AI to have an AI marketing strategy, if that makes sense. and what I like about S I still use SEO to refer to AI showing up in AI recommendations as well. And what I like about SEO.

Marie Fang (47:53)
today is it is much more straightforward. It's much more the best way I can put it is like much more intuitive and human-like. So I mentioned keyword research before back in 2016. I needed to figure out what are the exact words somebody's looking for, typing in when they're looking for a therapist like me. If I put that I'm a, you know, LGBTQ affirming therapist, but they're typing in LGBTQ affirming counselor, I better, I better put counselor on my website, not therapist.

Marie Fang (48:23)
And now that stuff like doesn't it that AI is so smart. It knows that a therapist and the counselor are the same thing. that's like a silly small example, but that really was SEO back then. And now it's much more intuitive. And and if you can build an online presence that where you're you're using a tone of voice and language that reflects how you talk to your clients and actually shares the work that you do, the specialties that you have, you don't have to like.

Marie Fang (48:53)
get the language or that perfect strategy. What I will say is AI loves any markers that show that we have some kind of authority or expertise. We are who we say we are. And there are a lot of like kind of small things that we can do that are that are very they're helpful for AI and not AI, regardless, that are can help us show up in those results. So even things like don't forget to put your credentials

Marie Fang (49:21)
on your page, right? If it just says therapist Marie Fang versus if it says Marie Fang licensed psychologist or Dr. Marie Fang or LMFT, whatever you got, whatever, you know, acronym letters you have after your name. and if you want to kind of flag different different things that offer you the credentials to do the work that you do on your website, that's great. and then this is this might sound silly, but like claiming your online presence in places other than your website.

Marie Fang (49:49)
Even if you're you don't have to post to social media, you don't have to like post stuff. But you know, if you have any sort of in-person office where you see clients, you're available to see clients in person, them setting up a Google business profile is like super, super helpful. I've noticed that when my practice shows up in AI recommendations, it's pulling the pictures straight from my Google business profile instead of my website. like even and all you have to do is like set it, you can fill in all the blanks. You don't have to like

Marie Fang (50:18)
put up all these posts or change it all the time. but just go ahead and like complete the blank fields in your Google business profile. And they do have a process for you to verify that it's actually you and you're not like making up a business that doesn't exist. But it's worthwhile. It's free. you do have to have an actual office, which I I think is silly, but it is true to do that one. But that one's like really, really underrated and super valuable. I think everyone

Marie Fang (50:47)
should do that if they can with they have an office. but like claiming other profiles too. Any like local markers are helpful, like claiming your local like Yelp profile. And we're not looking for we're not looking for reviews and that's a whole other topic. So I don't ask clients for reviews, but just claiming I'm a business saying I exist. And so I claimed my Yelp profile because I'm a real business and I made sure that it had

Marie Fang (51:10)
the same name and phone number and address on it that it says on my website, that it says on my Google Business profile. and things like online directories also offer that sort of verification. Now those are usually paid a lot of most of them are, I think. A

Andrew (51:27)
I was working.

Marie Fang (51:27)
lot of them have a free trial so you can always try it out and see. Give it a couple months. You might not be getting the referral straight through Psychology Today, for example, but

Marie Fang (51:36)
The fact that you have a psychology today pres profile is telling AI like, hey, this is probably a real therapist. Look, they're they have a website, but they also are on psychology today. They're also on Yelp, they also have their website, all these Google's, I forget which ones I said. And so they're probably an actual business. and they have the same consistent information on all of these profiles, same specialties listed, that sort of thing. that then you're much more likely to show up. And those are like some of those like,

Marie Fang (52:05)
Quick quicker, like you could do it in a weekend, kind of get all those profiles set up. and it keeps working for you even if you don't like go back and keep working on them. So that's just the beginning. I'm just sc scratched the surface, but I think a lot of people could do

Andrew (52:20)
Yes.

Marie Fang (52:21)
those.

Andrew (52:22)
Tune in

Andrew (52:22)
to Dr. Marie Fang's upcoming video on how to how to connect in a world that is becoming more AI dominated in a a search context. for somebody that says they don't know a lot about how to set yourself up for success in AI search, you just provided a lot of very amazing tactical nuggets that a lot of people can quickly do over the next couple of weeks. And so if there are some takeaways and you're trying to figure out how to establish that presence, highly recommend. I would be remiss

Andrew (52:51)
To not ask you this question before we move towards wrapping up here. But we've talked about everything, but the fact that you have this amazing social media presence and brand that you've built over the last decade. For a therapist who's just wants a full caseload and isn't looking to move into the world of teaching and building an audience beyond that, in the same way that you have, how much does social media

Andrew (53:18)
actually matter for them and what's the lowest lift way for folks to use it?

Marie Fang (53:24)
Yeah, that's a good question. That's a it's still a trendy question. And I I'll I'll put it this way. There I'm I meet more therapists who deeply dislike using social media but feel that they I guess are ha they are supposed to or they have to when they don't really want to, then I meet therapists who are like, ooh, you know what I would love to do? I would love to just post to social media. And there there there is a camp.

Marie Fang (53:52)
There is a category for that camp. I've been posting to YouTube every week for years and I enjoy the process. So my my like very shorthand answer to it is like, I think social media makes sense if you think whatever you're planning on put posting or posting about or posting what platform you're posting to, if you actually like it, then that is a great avenue to explore. And there's all kinds of strategies you can use there. If

Marie Fang (54:21)
you're feeling like that sounds like the bane of your existence and you don't want to do it. I I don't think it moves the needle as much as these other things that we're talking about. And especially if you don't like something, it comes through, right? So it's just it's probably not gonna work as well for you. I will say like if you want just sort of like the lowest hanging fruit of like I could be on social media a little bit. I think we are in an era where

Marie Fang (54:49)
If there can somewhere on the internet be at least one video of you somewhere, I think that makes a lot of sense. And so that could be on your website. It could be that you know your website has a link to your social media or something like that. but when at least as I'm talking as just me as a person, when I'm looking for a therapist, if I can't find a video of them anywhere, I'm sort of like,

Marie Fang (55:13)
Wait, how come they don't have a video? And I've my I have a therapist right now and she doesn't have I couldn't find a video of her and I still think sh think she's great and I still booked with her. So it's possible. I'm just saying there is like a soothing that comes from like, here's a video of this person. This is what they sound like, these are their facial expressions. And I know video is like scary. and it does it's like a learning curve, right? So don't do it unless

Marie Fang (55:41)
Don't make yourself do it if you feel like you're forcing yourself. But if you wanted the like you have a couple of posts on social media and there's some video footage of you that somebody could find if they were like me in that way, that could help clients build tr potential clients build trust with you. but again, I always say like don't do anything. You don't if you feel like you're pulling teeth doing it, like it's not worth it. And that's gonna come through. and you don't have to. So that's my semi-short social media answer.

Andrew (56:11)
It sounds like the takeaway from the necessity of social media in your practice is more so give folks an opportunity to to get to know you and get to know the authentic you and so, it's less about you need to be on TikTok and YouTube and X, Y, and Z channels, but for the for the person that's looking to build an independent practice,

Andrew (56:36)
just creating the surface area for people to get to know you. Do they need to have a really cool, fancy video setup like you and I have right now to make

Marie Fang (56:43)
N no.

Andrew (56:44)
this podcast seem so official?

Marie Fang (56:46)
Don't do that. No, just I mean, the thing is like phones are so good now. I sometimes I'll even like if I'm filming a video on YouTube and I want to say something real quick, I'll just pull my phone out and record it and add it and edit it in. so yeah, d and that I mean that can just seem more authentic too anyway. just like in a professional like maybe don't be, you know, I don't know, lying in bed in your pajamas with disheveled and awkward angle.

Marie Fang (57:14)
and I always tell people if you're interested in you're open to exploring video, but it's kind of scary, but you're open to it, just just plan to not post the first video that you record. Just get used to like filming yourself and watching it back and don't post the first, you know, think of them as first drafts. because yeah, as we watch ourselves back, we go, that was really awkward. That's not what is that really what I sound like? Or our, you know, a trusted loved one who's kind could say, like, yeah, that's not that's not.

Marie Fang (57:43)
how you normally act and then you can kind of practice being on video. so that I mean you don't have to do it for hours, but you could take three videos and then post the third one or whatever it might be.

Andrew (57:55)
I love it. Amazing. okay, so in closing things out and wrapping up, because you've provided us with an infinite number of resources, opportunities, actions, next steps, and your own personal story that all the folks on this call can relate to as they think about their own niche and opportunities. What's just one concrete step that a therapist listening to this podcast can take, let's say over the next

Andrew (58:24)
two weeks to set themselves up for success from a quote unquote marketing standpoint, but really in establishing who they are in their practice.

Marie Fang (58:34)
Yeah. I think I mean I know this might sound this might sound very therapisty me therapisty of me, but I really believe, especially with private practice or marketing a business, like if we can make sure we're staying rooted in our values, our sense of self, why are we here? Why am I even a therapist? Why do I want to do this? And and there's value in taking in input from what other people are suggesting, what I'm even suggesting right now, but

Marie Fang (59:02)
There's also value in saying, like, okay, let me just tune all of that out and like what really matters to me and who's the person who who am I? Who do I want to be in this world? Who how do I wanna be as a therapist? Why does this work matter to me? And then anything that we build that looks like quote unquote marketing, it needs to connect back to that. Even if we're using a strategy, like maybe you're not like excited to start your Google business profile, but that maybe you're reminding yourself of like,

Marie Fang (59:32)
this is what I'm doing here, what I'm trying to build. And can I make sure I'm like in my whether wise mind, if we want to use a DBT term or kind of centered, grounded state, rather than what can be it's so easy to just fall into this like anxious, panicked state of like, no, I need to like do all this stuff and be frantic about trying to market our practice. And then it ends up

Marie Fang (01:00:00)
obviously being costly to our own well being, but it might not create kind of the the practice that you want. It might not be as connective to potential clients too. So that's like a broad my broad tip. Be be yourself. Connect to yourself.

Andrew (01:00:18)
Beyond just this very fun conversation that we've had, you also have a lot of material that exists out there in the world for people to find. Where can people find you and learn more about private practice skills in Dr. Marie Fang?

Marie Fang (01:00:34)
Yeah, I I have private practice skills. I'm on YouTube and I used to say I'd never podcast, but now I'm on the different podcasting platforms as private practice skills. and I have resources on my website as well, privatepracticskills.com.

Andrew (01:00:51)
Go visit and check it out. And thank you to my personal podcast coach from the day, Dr. Marie Fang, in helping us navigate our first podcast here. And just thank you for sharing so openly about your story from 2012 to now. You've had such an amazing impact on the work that we're doing at Herd. And I've always felt so grateful that we share the the values of just really trying to d democratize all the information that we can to help clinicians be successful in their practice. And so thank you for all.

Andrew (01:01:21)
that you do. and thank you for all of your support and thank you for making this so much fun and so easy.

Marie Fang (01:01:27)
Yay. Thank you for having me and congratulations. You recorded your first podcast. You're a pro now. Yes. Yeah, thank you so much. It was fun.

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