Why Therapists Undercharge: Laura Reagan on Money, Shame, and Self-Worth

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (00:00)
don't think the general public understands the hardships of our field and our our job. I mean, even when you're getting paid, you could be getting paid like Kim Kardashian. It's still a hard job. I mean, really hard. You have to want to be doing this. It's some days it's amazing and you are just like so grateful to be able to make a difference. And some days, you know

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (00:27)
are tragic and terrifying and all of that is part of this work.

Andrew (01:22)
I am here with Laura Reagan, who is what's very

Andrew (01:27)
Quickly debunk any of the myths. She is not related to Ronald Reagan, nor does she share any of the principled values as Ronald Reagan. But Laura is an integrative trauma therapist and clinical supervisor that's based out of Baltimore, Annapolis area and is licensed as an LCSW in Maryland. She owns a group practice, the Baltimore Annapolis Center for Integrative Healing, which is a beautiful name, focused on trauma and attachment. She has host.

Andrew (01:57)
hosted it, the therapy chat since twenty fifteen, where she interviews therapists, authors, and researchers about the craft of psychotherapy. Based on some of your YouTube videos, I was trying to figure out how many episodes have you done. How many episodes have you filmed of

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (02:09)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (02:10)
the therapy chat at this point? I had to think like it was above like six hundred at this point.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (02:16)
I think it's five thirty seven, but they're not all on video. So they're all on audio and probably the last two hundred or so are on video too.

Andrew (02:26)
well, she has filmed an exceptional number of podcasts

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (02:31)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (02:32)
and in 2021 she launched Trauma Chat for a general audience and also founded the Trauma Therapist Network, a resource hub and membership community for trauma therapists, and works as a burnout prevention consultant. Her clinical specialty is in people pleasing, perfectionism, and shame, often rooted in childhood neglect or abuse. She speaks openly about being a trauma survivor herself. Thank you for

Andrew (02:55)
being authentic and telling your story. It's important for others. And that specialty is the whole reason that we are doing this episode because we believe that some of those things show up in the way that clinicians are presenting themselves in their work and identifying their self-worth and how they monetize and make money in their practice. And so super, super grateful to be here. Laura, I'd love to just start out by talking about

Andrew (03:23)
Just your journey and the platform that you've built and the pathway to building that platform. Obviously you started as a clinician, probably not with the ambitions of going down the path that you did, but tell me a little bit more about how you found yourself walking down that path.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (03:41)
Okay, well thank you for having me. And yeah, it it was a really winding path. I mean, it wasn't like you said, I did not think when I graduated from grad school or when I was in grad school or when I wanted to go to grad school that I would be hosting a podcast for one thing, 'cause I had never heard of one at that time and

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (04:05)
certainly not working in private practice, owning group group practice. I really didn't expect any of that. It kind of just developed. I think, you know, the most truthful thing I can say about how it all came to be was that I I followed a tiny inkling inside that there was something

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (04:33)
I wanted to do or bring, you know, it really wasn't I'll just say I'm sometimes I feel jealous of people who go, I'm going to create a da da da da da and then they just do it and they make it look amazing and they just they just systematically put it together and launch it and do it. But it wasn't like that for me at all. It was a very

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (05:03)
a stumbling path, you know, I kind of just tumbled and stumbled until I was following my passion for trauma work and making a difference in in the world. because when I started out before I went to grad school, I started in two thousand two. I was volunteering in a sexual assault crisis center. And when I went through the training to do that work

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (05:26)
really having no idea what I was getting into But when I went into that

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (05:31)
I knew nothing about trauma and through the training process it was a forty hour training and they trained us all about trauma and childhood trauma and how, you know, it is cyclic and I was like, my gosh. I mean, I didn't realize it then, but I was really seeing so much of my own family's experience and my my

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (05:55)
partner's family, my extended family, in those stories. I didn't know it then. So I didn't really recognize that we all had trauma, that I had trauma. And once I found out, I just wanted to tell everyone because it was like, hey, if you knew this, you would you would want to do something about it. You know? So kind of over time as I guess I just sort of evolved from talking about it to anyone who would listen to

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (06:24)
I started doing some coaching with someone who said, being a millennial then and I'm a Gen Xer, she was a millennial, she said, I could see you doing a podcast. And I was like, Yeah, what is that? You know, I'll do it. So I had really no idea and I I kind of thought to myself, Well, I did want to be a radio DJ when I was younger. Something about like being able to control what you're talking about, what you're hearing, I guess.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (06:53)
But I still really had no idea of there was like a part of me that was wanting my voice to be heard and so many other parts of me that really had no clue what to talk about, why anyone would listen or any of those things, which I think really ties into what we're talking about today in this conversation because I didn't r

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (07:19)
I would say like, you know, if you think about it from the perspective of parts work, which, you know, many of us have heard about IFS parts work. most of my parts didn't really think that there was anything that I had to offer that anyone else would want, whether it's related to what I'm talking about, what I'm doing, just who I was. And then, you know, there were some parts and myself

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (07:48)
you know, the true me, my true nature inside that's always consistent and has been through my whole life, that did have things to say, wanted people to know, and and felt that it was worthwhile to let people hear from me. So yeah, it was a it was a not an easy process to get there. So but that's the that's the emotional path to how I got from

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (08:18)
that point to starting a podcast at least.

Andrew (08:23)
Yeah, thank you for the the reflection though on the I think it's so

Andrew (08:30)
I think there's like very few experiences. I both having a lot of friends that have like started a variety of different types of businesses and then my wife being a clinician and all of my friends being clinicians and how their like path has led them to what they focus on in practice. But I think it'll probably resonate for a lot of folks that like they see this like polished version of you with like an amazing voice for radio at this point in time, but

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (08:53)
Yeah.

Andrew (08:54)
it wasn't wasn't that at that point in time and

Andrew (08:59)
just the excitement that you had found initially around kind of this new learning about yourself and that you just wanted to like talk about it and start sharing it and that just is the thing that led you down the path. I'm curious like as you started selfishly just 'cause I've had my my own separate journey with mental health, probably for another conversation, but like what was like the reception when you first started talking about

Andrew (09:28)
trauma and the the interactions with your family and I'm assuming that you brought it up in a family setting but also in a professional setting and like what was like that actual bridge that led you to kind of like shape up and really like understand your voice and what you wanted to talk about there?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (09:45)
Ugh I wish I could say it was that that easy even as what you just described, but really I I started the podcast. I'll be honest, like I have not gone back and listened to the first few episodes. I

Andrew (10:01)
Ha ha ha.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (10:02)
would cringe to even hear because it felt so vulnerable that to hear my voice reflecting that vulnerability would be like

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (10:12)
you know, just wanna hide. It's so so intense. But so I wasn't talking about my trauma at all. I wasn't really even clear that I was talking about trauma on the podcast because in twenty

Andrew (10:26)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (10:27)
fifteen when I started Therapy Chat, people weren't talking about trauma like they are now. And I like to think that maybe Therapy Chat has had some influence in, you know, helping people become more aware about trauma. That that would be

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (10:42)
a worthwhile contribution to the world if that were the case. but I was talking about shame and vulnerability and authenticity. I had gotten training in Brene Brown's work back in twenty fourteen and

Andrew (11:02)
Amazing.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (11:03)
yeah so that that helped me feel more confident to

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (11:09)
speak up about anything than I had been before where I was like, you know, really so shy about tooting my own horn that it was it was intense. So as I went on, because the thing about making a podcast is I mean, you might realize this yourself, you don't really know how it's going to be, no matter how much you think you want it to be something, until you're doing it

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (11:39)
You don't really know. And then as you do it, it evolves, just like life, as we grow through life. You know, we're continually changing. We're finding a rhythm. We're going, I like this and I don't like that, or I want to go this way. So that's what happened. And it was also a process. I was doing a lot of interviews. I was interviewing other therapists and authors, researchers, and other people who work with trauma about the ways to

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (12:08)
heal from trauma that are outside of the medical model that most people know about. So I really wanted to help the general public and therapists learn that there are so many different ways to work with trauma aside from cognitive behavioral therapy, top-down therapies, because the bottom up therapies are

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (12:33)
really important when you're working with trauma. You're not going to be able to heal something that's held in the body through talking. So

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (12:47)
I didn't even realize that I had my own trauma. So even though I was maybe subconsciously or unconsciously in that class back in 2002, going, my gosh, this is revelatory, I wasn't quite making the connection of my own life, my own experiences, my family's experiences. I basically the only thing I was really getting out of that was aside from the nuts and bolts of how trauma works, is

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (13:16)
Things that happen to us in childhood don't just go away. They're still there. If they're, you know, if they're harmful things that we experience, they're they're just kind of stuck there until they can be resolved. when we don't have the right support in the moment when that happens. And that's what creates trauma. So basically it was kind of as if my younger parts were hearing for the first time, like,

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (13:42)
Yeah, something really did happen that matters in your life. And that's why you feel the way you do. It's not you, it's what you've been through. So, you know, that kind of we're all walking around carrying these things that maybe we never had the words for. We don't really understand the way they impacted us, but they're there. And

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (14:11)
Through 11 years of doing therapy chat and all of these wonderful conversations with so many wonderful guests, even though I was already I was the whole time I was in my own therapy, I was working as a therapist, I still just was so well protected from knowing how I was impacted until a certain point when I finally got my own bottom-up therapy and realized, wow. Okay.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (14:39)
I see what's going on here now for real. So, you know, it's a long process to to find healing. I feel like it's a lifelong process. Even when you are seeking mental health treatment, you know, it's it's continually like getting to know yourself and what impacts you and where to go next from there. That's it's really it's a slow thing.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (15:08)
I'm in my fifties. I'm still healing.

Andrew (15:08)
Yeah.

Andrew (15:11)
Are you saying that there's there's more? my gosh.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (15:14)
Yeah. You're

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (15:15)
like, man

Andrew (15:18)
Yeah, I like I d I yeah, I literal context on like my experience. I've had panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder and it got to a very severe place where I explored some alternative paths when I was sixteen and tried to take my own life and I've seen I don't know, God, how many like five to seven therapists at this point in time and

Andrew (15:47)
i it just resonates so deeply what you're saying. That like pathway of discovery around there's not an endpoint in this like journey that I'm on and the thing that I'm trying to discover and you, you know, learn tools and you try different ways of

Andrew (16:03)
sorting through some of those challenges that you faced and they still continue to show up in your work, in your personal life, and everything that you do. but I just I deeply I say that 'cause I deeply appreciate the the work that you do and

Andrew (16:18)
It's interesting that like the it seems like the common thread in the path with therapy chat is just like you being like so stubbornly curious of like discovering what trauma is and like how do I find this answer? And then you found yourself on that journey and reflected on that and then dove deeper into understanding that version of yourself better and then, you know, this led to trauma chat and trauma therapist network. Wake what was the extension of

Andrew (16:49)
moving beyond that pad podcast into even a you know, a a bigger opportunity or area of impact.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (16:56)
Well, I used to I used to spend a lot of time lamenting because I would try to help people find trauma therapists. I would try to help my own clients who I was referring on or people who were moving away and they needed a therapist elsewhere or family members, myself, friends. you know, everybody would say, Hey, you're the trauma expert. Can you help us find a therapist? And I

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (17:25)
I would say, yeah, definitely. You know, what do you kind of what do you need help with? What are you looking for? They wouldn't know. So I would be like, okay, what they say they think they want help with. I'll try to find someone I think could be a good fit for them. And then I would search and search and search and search and search. I would search psychology today. Then I would go on all the different directories for the different methods like IFS, brain spotting, EMDR.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (17:54)
And then, you know, a lot of the people that would be listed wouldn't be therapists. They might be a yoga instructor or coach and which is valuable, but if you're looking for therapy, you're looking for therapy. So I used to why won't someone create a directory to search for a trauma therapist? I used to just get so frustrated. I wish someone would just why won't anyone? And then finally

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (18:23)
In 2019, I was like, I guess I'll have to create it. I'm not a developer or anything. I have no idea.

Andrew (18:29)
Ha ha ha

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (18:32)
I know what it needs to have, but I have no idea how to make a website database with a search engine. And I've I saw some other people create directories that were not what I had in mind. I was like, this has to be clear.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (18:48)
really functional, easy to use, and just spell things out in ways that people can people who are in crisis who are seeking help in crisis can look at it and go, okay, this is this sounds like they specialize in what I need help with. I understand what their training is, I see their experience, I get a feel for their vibe.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (19:12)
They look nice here. I can contact them right from here. You know, there's this goes to their website. here's more about them. So I finally I wanted to do it in 2019. And then my dad got really sick and he nearly died. I was looking into it that summer, and then in August he got sick and everything went on hold. And then he had a very shocking recovery. And

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (19:40)
Then COVID happened. So I was like, you know, that project is on hold. And then everybody else was making sourdough bread, learning new TikTok dances, starting, you know, apps, all kinds of new things. And I thought, well, I don't have a COVID project. I'm just trying to like keep my mind from keep from losing my mind basically, 'cause I was

Andrew (20:07)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (20:08)
under so much stress. And but then I thought, well, you know, COVID seems to be going on indefinitely. And my practice might not survive. So I'm gonna go ahead and work on that project of creating that directory. And so that's how it happened. Finally in 2021, I

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (20:37)
got everything in place and found a developer who created a great website and launched and was this is this month is the fifth birthday of Trauma Therapist Network, so it's a really big deal to us, thank you, to be to have

Andrew (20:52)
Congratulations.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (20:53)
just kept it going for five years and it's become a place where

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (20:58)
therapists received so much support. So now I feel like it's really living up to kind of the mission of serving trauma survivors and serving trauma therapists. And that's what it's really all about. So that has helped me

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (21:19)
really like go beyond just surviving through COVID and not not I'm not speaking about financially but like emotionally and in terms of connection, what we have in Trauma Therapist Network is so supportive. It's just as supportive for myself as it is for the members. So it's been amazing. Really grateful

Andrew (21:44)
It's

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (21:44)
to be able to have created it.

Andrew (21:48)
Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of therapists that are great at grateful for your COVID side project, Laura, and that it came to life.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (21:54)
Thanks.

Andrew (21:55)
I just I can't help but think about how like you're kinda and this is the phrase that I'll use, and so if you're offended you can tell me and we can use a different phrase, but like you're such like an accidental entrepreneur. Like you created this

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (22:07)
Yes.

Andrew (22:08)
mass massive podcast and

Andrew (22:14)
audience by, you know, following your own curiosity and then you were like really fucking pissed off that like it was hard to like navigate getting someone connected to another therapist and then you're like, dang it, the like mirror's in front of me and I have to be the one to do it. And then you did that. And like like what do you what do you make of the like the like path to

Andrew (22:38)
accidental entrepreneur and like do you even like think about yourself in that way or do you just like view it more for yourself as like, God, I'm just like every day doing things that are like super cool that I love to

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (22:50)
Hmm.

Andrew (22:50)
do that are in alignment with my values and that feels great. Like do you even think about the that kind of other side of this like very big thing that you've built, an amazing thing that you've built?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (23:05)
well I think that I don't I appreciate your kind words. I don't always give myself credit for the impact and I want to I want to feel

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (23:24)
connected to that impact. That's kind of what keeps me going when I feel discouraged as I think about the number of listeners to the podcast and and the number of website visitors to Trauma Therapist Network. It shows that people are finding it, people want it, they need it. And it's not just entertainment. It's really there's a lot of educational value to it. So

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (23:48)
I do really think of myself kind of as an accidental entrepreneur and and I used to say people would say, How do you do so much stuff? And I would be like, Is it so much? Which shows how I was just like hustling and, you know, not in my body. But then

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (24:11)
As time has passed, I've really begun to realize because I would answer, I don't know. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. I really have no idea what I'm doing. And there's that's true for parts of me that I just am doing it, like building the plane while flying it, you know? But but there's also truth to there's just some part of me that's being realized through this.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (24:37)
And it's it's like something that's always been there that's always wanted to be felt. And maybe it wasn't safe enough for me to really show that before. And you know, you may notice this with your partner being a therapist too, that

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (24:58)
know, what we do in our therapy sessions, it's just between us and the client and we have standards and ethics that we follow and we you know, we hold the highest integrity, but it's just us and the client who really know what happens. So it's like you can be really giving and giving and giving like your very best therapy work and you're you're really you're

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (25:25)
practicing this relationship in your ongoing sessions with your clients. But when you walk out of the door, no one else sees it and you can just go, you know, it's like Clark Kent, you know, puts his little n journalist outfit back on and walks out of the phone booth and just goes about his business. But but our work is so life-changing. And I think that our field is suffering a bit from the

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (25:55)
Quietness of what we do and how humble most of us are about our accomplishments, our skills, our knowledge, the really intense experiential practice that we have undergone to reach the point of being able to practice independently and

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (26:24)
Especially when

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (26:29)
I feel like saying everyone and their mother is on like TikTok and and Instagram telling you how to deal with your mental health and how to, you know, fix your your thinking with most most of us aren't doing that because we're not really ethically supposed to. So the voices that are telling you about mental health are telling you

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (26:55)
loudly and maybe a lot of what they're sharing is accurate information, but it's not coming from therapists because that's not really what we do. So you know, I think I think I'm glad you're doing this podcast because I think it's it's beneficial for people to understand really what therapy is and what it can be and and the value and importance of it in in our culture. I mean, gosh

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (27:24)
It doesn't really take much. All you have to do is turn on the news, which I w don't wanna do, and and s you realize that there's a lot of need for therapy and therapists and we all need and deserve care and tending too.

Andrew (27:43)
Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. And I think with the with the podcast it's been really interesting and we've talked to gosh, Leah, I don't know. I actually don't come on stage because we're currently filming the podcast, but we've talked to I think six or seven folks r right now. and like the through line that I'm seeing is like there's such an opportunity for

Andrew (28:07)
Therapists like yourself who are so creative and courageous and I think like entrepreneurial in a way that like many of them wouldn't acknowledge to have such a broad sweeping impact beyond just the clinical chair and that the like world it that's this is not like everyone should do that, because if you don't want to do that, don't do that. But

Andrew (28:32)
I just think about I mean talking to like Audra Horney, I think when I think it was like two weeks ago when we were in Portland. Like she's built this brand around men and masculinity and their experience and has built a network of providers that are supporting them and for you that are extending within the the context of trauma to build this incredible network to support folks that are going through that experience and better understand it through the podcast and the education and like there's no better person to do this than

Andrew (29:02)
therapists themselves. I don't know like the most sophistic way

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (29:04)
Yeah.

Andrew (29:05)
sophisticated way to say this, but like therapists have such an incredible opportunity to do the thing that like helps us not have the TikTok thing or like the company that raises five hundred million dollars to like solve the problem thing or the like medication thing. It it's just like

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (29:21)
Yeah.

Andrew (29:22)
I don't know, all to say like I'm very grateful for the work that you do and that you have followed that that path of curiosity and pushed through those moments where you have had a lot of self doubt because I think it's having a

Andrew (29:33)
a deeply extended impact in a way that someone else couldn't have done that. and I think there's a lot of therapists that can learn from that and maybe that's a transition point for us as well. Cause you've talked to so many clinicians and you have so many clinicians in your network that are having their own experiences show up in the way that they value themselves and work. And I think how therapists charge for themselves is

Andrew (29:58)
oftentimes one of the ways that you see that show up. whether it's the kind of the helper identity or the shame that shows up around money, what do you make of therapists not charging their value or charging their worth in their practice and the kind of why behind that continuing to show up?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (30:17)
Yeah, that I mean, I'm sure there are many factors and this is kind of just more anecdotal, but I would say for one thing, there's kind of a difference in who goes into which part of our field. You know, we have social work, marriage and family therapy, counseling, psychology, and and then there are like

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (30:43)
art therapy, dance movement therapies. but for people who go into psychology, it seems like because you need a doctoral level degree, it seems like maybe people who pursue psychology probably start with some exposure to people making money as therapists, and they think

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (31:10)
I wanna do that and I'll get respect and you know, kind of a lot of that turns out to be true when you become a you know, a clinical psychologist with a doctorate. we can still have money fears and there's a lot of shaming in our whole educational process. I think that the whole you have to work for free to get your credential is

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (31:40)
Probably unique to our field. And it's this sort of like hazing cycle that well, we had to do it, so you have to do it, so you'll have to do it, so they're gonna have to do it. And I don't know anyone who can live on working for free. I was a mother with young kids and a partner when I became a therapist and so I had to have

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (32:08)
you know, my free internship, my part-time job and my full time school caseload and my full time family responsibilities and you know, mountains of student loans to go with it. But so a lot of people who go into social work, which is my field, don't necessarily come into it with a lot of financial security.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (32:38)
There are more people I think who go into social work. There are more avenues to get a degree in social work that like for example, if you work at the Department of Social Services, a lot of times you can be supported to get your degree and then get your masters and in exchange for a work obligation. so it allows accessibility, but there are also many people in the field who have

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (33:06)
very acute experiences with poverty, deprivation, and understand the barriers to access that people experience. And in social work, that's something that we learn about. So social work kind of comes from this idea of like charity and, you know, also white saviorism. There's a lot of you know, problematic aspects in our history and psychology and all of the mental health disciplines. But

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (33:36)
I think that many people who are in social work and many people who go into helping professions may have grown up with financial insecurity or they understand what that's like and feel really an important responsibility to the where they came from to ensure that, you know, the people who, you know, they feel they may have left behind also get

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (34:05)
access and while I absolutely agree with that that everyone deserves access, I don't necessarily think it's our responsibility as clinicians to make therapy accessible. I think there's systemic problems with access that are created by pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, healthcare systems that the the individual therapist really has very little if any power to do anything about.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (34:35)
So my poverty doesn't really help our system or our field. If my poverty allows someone else in poverty to be able to access therapy, that may be in the short term beneficial for them and for me. But, you know, in terms of like a s a sub subsistence type of income. But

Andrew (34:59)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (35:01)
Ultimately, I can't sustain that work because I'm not going to be physically and mentally well if I'm living in poverty. I'm not going to be able to be emotionally well to hold space for people if I'm my needs aren't being met if I'm in deprivation myself. So I think that it's very altruistic and it's definitely coming from the right place that we feel, you know.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (35:29)
a moral obligation to accept insurance and things like that. But, you know, I think if you have my practice is private pay. And I think if you can have a private pay practice that supports you enough that your needs are met, then you can offer low fee or pro bono sessions with the capacity that you have because you're not forced to work seeing 40 clients a week.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (35:59)
you know, with all different diagnoses that, you know, you're trying to keep track of it all. It's just it's not it's just not sustainable to do that. Even if, you know, I think people burn out by the time they get their independent license oftentimes, if not while they're in grad school and then they leave the field or they go into being administrators and then there's still, you know, and no fault to anybody who chooses whatever path they do in our field, but we need therapists.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (36:28)
And when people are willing to do all the training to become a therapist and then they leave the field because they're burned out, because they weren't getting the support they needed, we have a major problem in our field. And I wish NASW would seem to care more about that, but I don't really see that they do. Controversial opinion.

Andrew (36:46)
Yeah, may maybe not super controversial. an unheard opinion perhaps. Yeah, it's really interesting because I've seen so my wife, clinical psychologist, she did her PhD at UW. Exactly what you said. She worked under she worked at the VA and then worked at an independent group practice with folks that charged a high rate. And so when she came out and set up her practice, she's like, I need to charge a high rate, but not as high as them. I cannot have it as high as them because I don't have as much as experience as them. but then my sister in law

Andrew (37:16)
did her social work degree at Columbia and then is late stages of her pre licensure and was working for a practice and just like completely unlivable wages. Like I think maybe forty or fifty dollars per clinical hour while that practice was charging, you know, two hundred fifty or three hundred dollars per clinical hour, something egregious like that, and had to actually like move back home.

Andrew (37:47)
because she was an unable to support herself or live on her own through that process. And I'm curious

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (37:53)
So she went to an Ivy League school and got a master's degree

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (37:56)
and can't support herself and has to live at home. Like, what's wrong with this picture? I'm sure she paid for her education or someone did.

Andrew (38:04)
Yeah, she did. She did. And it's it's fucking crazy to me. I mean, apologize for my language that she can go through that process and then be in this stuck place. And I'm curious, I mean, especially as a group practice owner that probably works with pre licensed folks or maybe just newly licensed folks, like

Andrew (38:22)
Obviously you have cash pay, but like how do you think about that? And we can talk more about the independent therapist after, but like the pre licensure pipeline and people getting to the place of training and that area of burnout, like how do folks advocate for themselves at a moment where like it's kind of unknown how to do that or kind of like stuck, I think is probably the word that my sister in law would say.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (38:47)
Yeah, and I would say like to be fair, I'm sure your sister in law learned how to advocate for herself because social work

Andrew (38:53)
Yeah, for sure.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (38:54)
does teach is advocacy. It but one person, what what can you do against the system when you are in a position you're in a down position because you need the supervision hours and the client direct practice hours to be able to get your independent license. So this is the

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (39:16)
bind that most of us are in in all the fields that we have to do at least one year, usually unpaid. I will say about your wife, the the VA usually does paid internships. I don't know if she was fortunate to get one of those. So, you know, and those are very hard to get. And then the VA pays pretty well, relatively speaking. It's still I'll say 'cause I haven't worked there, it's not the greatest work environment, but nevertheless, it's a needed resource and at least

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (39:45)
Because it's a government funded place, they they can pay, you know, at least they can pay. Maybe there's a lot of other problems within that system. But because if we're not getting paid enough to pay our bills.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (40:04)
We are not okay when we're doing our work. I mean, it's that simple. And in New York City, forty to fifty dollars an hour is not enough to live on. Some places it might be, but not there. And yeah, so as for how to advocate for themselves, hmm, you know, I mean

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (40:29)
I think if young new people in the field were making a stink about their disappointment about what it's like when they come into the field, I think that would that could help, but you have to make sure that who's who's listening? Like it's who cares really? I don't think people

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (40:55)
I don't think the general public understands the hardships of our field and our our job. I mean, even when you're getting paid, you could be getting paid like Kim Kardashian. It's still a hard job. I mean, really hard. You have to want to be doing this. It's some days it's amazing and you are just like so grateful to be able to make a difference. And some days, you know

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (41:25)
are tragic and terrifying and all of that is part of this work. So, you know, why do people why would people want to go into our field if they can't earn a living wage? But I think, you know, speaking out about my education costs this much and I get paid this much and, you know, that's wrong, like speaking to the powers that be, but

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (41:54)
I'm not sure who they would be, honestly. I mean, like at this point, I feel like our field is so for one thing, there's so many huge problems going on in the world that this is something that just a lot of people aren't really that interested in. But our

Andrew (42:09)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (42:09)
field is so dominated right now by these other like diversions of these venture capital backed tech.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (42:19)
based platforms that are kind of selling a a different story. So I think there's still a lot of new people in the field who don't even really understand what is happening within our system. and so they they aren't really realizing yet until they get to a situation like your sister in law, like, I can't live on that. You know, what am I supposed to do? I have a

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (42:49)
She's kind of like a family friend who's in her first year since graduation with a degree in social work, also in New York City. And she's like, Why do these agencies pay so low? And I said, Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (43:06)
I don't know. I mean, I can't explain why. There's you know, the there's a lack of funding on the federal level and right now I probably even more, I don't know because I'm not involved in that stuff right now, but it's not a priority in our culture. So I think everything that everyone can do to raise awareness about the value of therapy and

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (43:36)
you know, the importance of mental health, not just suicide prevention. I mean, that's the most extreme. Suicide prevention

Andrew (43:41)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (43:42)
is the end of the mental health spectrum, right?

Andrew (43:44)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (43:45)
We it's long before that. We need prevention from from early ages. We need to teach people not to abuse their kids. But that's that's the mental health problem, not the pay problem. So I'm I'll

Andrew (43:57)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (43:58)
stay I'll try to stay focused.

Andrew (44:04)
yeah, it just feels like frustrating even listening to you talk about it. just in so far of like insufficient number of things that can be done to support clinicians in that. And I'm like writing down notes for myself of all of the ways that like we can talk about this more loudly, like with the information and data that we do have. so Leah, we will come back and talk about those things. so for you, like building a

Andrew (44:31)
a sustainable group practice. I think a lot of clinicians would be like, Awesome, Laura. Like, yes, I wanna build a cash pay group practice. but you had this like amazing brand on trauma and it probably helped build your gro like what do you say to people that are like they hear that and they're like, I don't even know how to like start doing that. How do I think about doing that?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (44:54)
Well, I started my practice in twenty thirteen. So I had been in the field, I graduated in twenty ten. So when I was working in two thousand two, I was on my track. I was getting my bachelor's and then going to school for my masters. So I was kind of learning alongside and working with trauma survivors even before I finished grad school. But I was really confident in my skills in

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (45:23)
as a therapist with trauma and I knew that

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (45:29)
There weren't a lot of therapists in my area who knew anything about trauma at all. So I knew there was like a very untapped market. And that's how I started my practice. And just, you know, speaking to trauma survivors and then like in my marketing. And then as I wasn't really planning on growing, I just had a steady number of clients every week. I was full, I wasn't advertising anymore, and I was just like, This is fine. And then

Andrew (45:56)
Hmm.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (45:57)
There was someone who kind of wanted like mentorship and I thought, well, I really like this person. First I was supervising them and then I thought, well, I could I could probably bring them on if they wanted to. So they joined and then that's how it became a group practice. So like everything else for me, it just kind of fell into place the way and I followed. okay. This is what we're doing now. But I'm not gonna lie though,

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (46:25)
Group practice ownership hasn't been that easy, especially since COVID either. I mean, COVID has really taken a toll on so many practices and a lot have you know, the larger ones have been bought by more venture capital companies and and then they, you know, they buy up the large practices and then they close some of them down so they're eliminating competition that way and again ac interfering with access to

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (46:54)
care for local people in their local community. but I also think that you know what keeps me going with my practice and what I hang on to is that I believe in what we do. I know it's needed. I know it's valuable.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (47:14)
my practice is not like super profitable, but it's doing good work in the community. It's sustaining me. We all feel proud of what we do. We're a community resource. and I feel like, you know, right now, this might not be for everyone, but being locally placed and having local community is really

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (47:42)
valuable because these, you know, tech platforms are are like these I know that like HERD is a tech platform, Trauma Therapist Network is a tech platform. We're not talking about the same kind of tech platforms, but the

Andrew (47:54)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (47:54)
ones that are actually providing a service based in a professional skill with integrity is one thing versus using technology to exploit a market that is, you know,

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (48:07)
For them, they see it as being ripe for picking. And for us, you know, there's an inferior level of service and a lot of tricks and deception. So being local and being a part of your local community and like really being rooted in your community, I think, is a way to kind of weather this hard time for therapy practices.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (48:34)
That you can't replace with flash and, you know, cool dances on TikTok.

Andrew (48:43)
No no more cool dances on TikTok. I was just like imagining I was imagining

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (48:46)
I mean

Andrew (48:49)
both of us severally doing cool dances on TikTok. I got very distracted there for a second. when you talk

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (48:55)
I never was good at those cool dances,

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (48:57)
so you can hear my bitterness about the cool dances on TikTok.

Andrew (49:01)
Did your did your millennial teammate tell you that you should also do TikTok as well? I mean, 'cause she was very right about the the podcast and so

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:11)
She

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:11)
was. She's she's not I'm not getting consultation with her anymore, so no. But yeah, I I'm eternally grateful that she knew what a podcast was. I had heard at the time in twenty fifteen, serial was very popular. And I said yeah, serial. That takes place in Baltimore.

Andrew (49:30)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:31)
I know. Yeah. that'd be good for traffic to my website. That's what I thought.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:37)
And then I told my husband and he said, Well, you have a great voice And I was like, All right, I'll do it.

Andrew (49:43)
So this is all the voice is all you've always had the voice for radio. You were always ready for that. This is just this is just who I am. d

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:47)
This is just my voice. Yes. Yes. The voice was part of the package.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (49:54)
It just was me. Like your voice. Just we have voices.

Andrew (49:59)
We do have vo yeah, I guess that we come with voices, mostly. I'm curious when you think about just like a financially sustainable career in this field, I mean like it's not also lost on me that like not once during this conversation have you talked about like the financial success of all of the things that you're doing, and I'm sure that you've been financially successful in the things that you're doing, and so

Andrew (50:24)
you probably just don't care about those things as much, or I'm sure you probably do, but like it hasn't

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (50:28)
Mm-hmm

Andrew (50:28)
come up once in like the hour we've been having a conversation. But how do you think about financial financial stability in your practice or like what a financially sustainable career should like look like for fe people that like don't understand how to even conceive that or think of that.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (50:50)
Well, I'm sure it's individual to each person, but and I've had financial success with my practice that I couldn't have imagined before, and I've had financial hardship with my practice that I couldn't have imagined too. So it hasn't been all fun and games. Trauma Therapist Network has you know it has income and Therapy Chat has income, but they're all used to pay

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (51:20)
workers to r run them too. So it's really not none of what I'm doing is like I'm not rich by any means. I there's no super abundant thing going on here. Other than I have abundance in my life that I

Andrew (51:34)
Hmm.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (51:35)
have freedom to choose how I spend my time and I don't have to say, can I take this day off

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (51:48)
And you know, freedom is really important to me. I think liberation is really r an important driving factor in my my life even before I realized it, you know. so I think being able to do really excellent work

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (52:11)
in a way that's fulfilling to myself and having a life outside of work that is also fulfilling to myself. making a difference in a way that is important to me. That's that's a type of abundance that you can't quantify in dollars. And so and and being able to create businesses that people work in.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (52:38)
that's giving to my community. I'm it's a it's a I made a business and then people got to come and work in the business. You know, if you don't have a business, they don't have a place to work. And people can start their own businesses, but not everyone wants to do that. So I love the ability to be part of a collegial group practice with my colleagues and grow together, mentor them and

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (53:08)
we all reciprocally support each other in very positive ways. So but the financial abundance is there too, you know, like I said, I would never have been earning what I earn now in community mental health. I I remember in community mental health, this was before I got my independent license, but I remember

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (53:38)
This was during it would have been like twenty twelve. they put up a notice on the bulletin board in the staff break room that said, Great news, you may qualify for food stamps. The income level has been raised. And so you might now qualify. It was like, great, great news. Wow. With our master's degree literally doing work that some days you're just like, I don't know how I'm gonna get through this.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (54:08)
And you might qualify for food stamps. Well, better than not qualifying and being in poverty and not being able to buy enough food, but it was a cold comfort, you might say. So this is definitely better.

Andrew (54:23)
Yeah, I mean, think about the like sis systemically, like what that trains you to believe about who

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (54:29)
Exactly.

Andrew (54:30)
y who you are and where you're going professionally that like, okay, good deal. We got the food stamps, at least we're gonna be covered from like Maslow's hierarchy of needs at like the very base. Now we just to figure

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (54:41)
Right.

Andrew (54:41)
out shelter and everything else. I'm curious, like looking back now

Andrew (54:46)
the accidental entrepreneur that you are, like, what's like the advice that you would give the like younger version of yourself who was just getting into this field, if anything at all?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (54:57)
I would say well, if it were younger me, I would say believe in yourself because what you're doing is going to make sense at some point and keep following that. Because the self-doubt is one of the biggest things that can really like block you from taking action. It's like, well, me?

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (55:28)
You know, why me? Who who me? But why not? Why not you? We all have something to contribute that's worthwhile and so believing that what you have to offer is worthwhile.

Andrew (55:47)
That's beautiful. And I think I what really resonated with me earlier was just your reflection of I think in the like IFS framework of all the different versions of yourself and how those different versions had to grow through the process of building your business or all the different parts of yourself had to grow. And I think still so often like I feel so deeply uncertain, even though I've been doing this for like seven years and like objectively outside looking in, I've like figured some of the things out. But like at every step of the journey, a lot of like

Andrew (56:17)
What building a business and growing a business has been to me is like figuring out like who I am as a person and like what I want and what that looks like. And that's unfortunate for the team at times. But I think I think y it's like a a forcing function or a mirror to like hold up to yourself around a lot of the parts that maybe you haven't thought about or didn't like as much. So this the story has like really resonated with me and I really appreciate you taking the time to to walk us through

Andrew (56:48)
Your pathway and journey. and I think like the last thing is like where do people find you, Laura? Like outside of like your support and

Andrew (56:58)
your like a political campaign that you're gonna be running as a predecessor of the Reagans.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (57:00)
yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (57:06)
Let's have some of that Reagan money. Let's get some of that Reagan money in in my campaign. Yay! Where did it trickle? I didn't feel it. Did anyone feel the trickle? No? No. We

Andrew (57:09)
Yeah. Yeah, trickle trickle down economics back into the the social work field, the SR takeaway. We haven't yet felt it.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (57:21)
didn't. please. Uncle Ronnie.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (57:28)
You can find me, everyone can find me at trauma therapist network dot com. That's that's where all my stuff lives. Trauma therapist network, membership community, therapy chat podcast, trauma chat. And you can also find my my own profile there so you could get to my practice website if you were looking for therapy in Maryland. We we have openings. Thank you so much for having me here.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (57:54)
Andrew. It was really nice to talk to you. And I'm I appreciate how you shared from your experience too, 'cause, you know, most people, you know, there's like this idea of identity of someone with mental health issues. We all have

Andrew (58:08)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (58:08)
mental h we have mental health, all of us. And sometimes it's

Andrew (58:12)
Yeah.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (58:12)
good and sometimes it's not so good. So sharing your experience is really beneficial for others to understand that

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (58:19)
Everyone suffers at times and we can also come through that and have wonderful lives.

Andrew (58:27)
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I think it's been, you know, a journey for myself and I think outwardly looking in even at that moment in time for myself, everyone would have been like, he's like so happy and such a good vibe and so much positivity. But I do find a lot of joy in in sharing that journey and I appreciate the way that you've done the same and I mean you've built a I guess to some degree like kind of have for myself as well, but you've built an entire career around that discovery process for yourself and that's something that I admire a lot, certainly like that career.

Andrew (58:57)
curiosity. So I appreciate you taking the time to to hang out and jam. You're awesome.

Laura Reagan, LCSW-C (59:03)
Thank you, you too.

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